[video] SSD Data Integrity and Longevity

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kingozrecords
KVRian
Topic Starter
1190 posts since 7 Apr, 2019 from Canada

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:01 am

There's never any guarantees, but I baulk at the fact that pcie ssd support cards do not have the feature that this card sports.

There's probably not a better card on the market to add ssd support to your tower.
Watch on dailymotion instead: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82sqvo

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https://youtu.be/APpMb7d4wnA

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jdnz
KVRian
1004 posts since 3 Oct, 2011 from Christchurch, New Zealand

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:12 pm

The battery is to try and give some level of power loss protection, as mid-write power cuts can and will scramble consumer ssds.

You can achieve the same by having your PC on a UPS (and then it protects ALL of the pc not just the ssd) - or by using enterprise grade SSDs which have power loss protection (given the cost of DC rated nvme modules I’d probably go a basic UPS)

https://image-us.samsung.com/SamsungUS/ ... JUL16J.pdf

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kingozrecords
KVRian
Topic Starter
1190 posts since 7 Apr, 2019 from Canada

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:49 pm

A ups won't do that, it's only theoretically, if dc current is directly attached to the bboard (alligator clips) that it could conceivably do that or your tower chassis is all steel and electrified with low level dc current, however; given the fact that a board is acid washed and given grounded and shielded circuitry that there's no way for that charge to go directly from the ups to the ssd. It's physically impossible unless you had a pcie card like this. A ups will however make the current quite a bit more stable and prolong the life of your ssd to an even greater extent. But.. that would also suggest that the connection to the ssd card was not grounded.

You're right about the enterprise level ssd's though. I haven't heard many good things about them, which you would think people would do; talk about their expensive gear and whatnot. Oh well.

Aside from that, did people know that a UPS can also save you money on your poower bill by about 30-40 dollars a month? Nice if you're penny pinching. I only recommend APC.

Besides that, sorry about the terrible audio this time around; I tried to repair it to some degree, but there's no fixing bellowing and plosives causing pumping. What a mess; at least I was able to fix the video to some extent :).
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Pictus
KVRian
732 posts since 21 Aug, 2017 from Brasil

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:19 pm

Interesting, thanks for the tip.
Now they need to do a PCIe V4 version.
I remember some old(PCI ?) high-end SATA RAID card with battery.

For UPS, better the pure sine wave models
https://www.akshatblog.com/use-only-pur ... ctive-pfc/

jdnz
KVRian
1004 posts since 3 Oct, 2011 from Christchurch, New Zealand

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:19 pm

kingozrecords wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:49 pm A ups won't do that, it's only theoretically, if dc current is directly attached to the bboard (alligator clips) that it could conceivably do that or your tower chassis is all steel and electrified with low level dc current, however; given the fact that a board is acid washed and given grounded and shielded circuitry that there's no way for that charge to go directly from the ups to the ssd. It's physically impossible unless you had a pcie card like this. A ups will however make the current quite a bit more stable and prolong the life of your ssd to an even greater extent. But.. that would also suggest that the connection to the ssd card was not grounded.
you obviously have zero electronics knowledge - if you don't understand how a UPS works, how the switchmode powersupply in your pc works and why it does exactly what I said I'd suggest you need to go do some reading.

jdnz
KVRian
1004 posts since 3 Oct, 2011 from Christchurch, New Zealand

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:22 pm

Pictus wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:19 pm For UPS, better the pure sine wave models
https://www.akshatblog.com/use-only-pur ... ctive-pfc/
also there's the whole line-interactive vs online trade-off - better efficiency when NOT on battery, vs better isolation from from supply spikes

it's annoying how many consumer range UPS's say something like 'sine wave apporximated output' in their marketting blurbs, but don't give any actual plots of the real output (cos a square wave is 'approximately' a sine wave - if you're willing to set your standards low enough)

lfm
KVRAF
5827 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:29 pm

jdnz wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:22 pm
Pictus wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:19 pm For UPS, better the pure sine wave models
https://www.akshatblog.com/use-only-pur ... ctive-pfc/
also there's the whole line-interactive vs online trade-off - better efficiency when NOT on battery, vs better isolation from from supply spikes

it's annoying how many consumer range UPS's say something like 'sine wave apporximated output' in their marketting blurbs, but don't give any actual plots of the real output (cos a square wave is 'approximately' a sine wave - if you're willing to set your standards low enough)
I'd say double converters are the best - they constantly rectify and charge battery at the same time as having an DC2AC converter(inverter) creating a very stable and nice(close to sine) voltage/current.

In this way there is no switch time at all, not even a ms - it constantly works like that.
They are more expensive though, but found one that was really affordable($200 for 1000 VA). Enough to run my small studio(computer, 2 displays, 6 synths and guitar amp). Enough to run the whole lot 5 minutes or so to nicely shut down if power grid shuts down. But best was absolutely stable power all the time.

https://powerwalker.com/

A VFI TG series are double converters.

I had seriously flawed grid power at the time that even electric company changed all cabling in the neighbourhood eventually. Before getting this double converter I had from 170-230 VAC jumping all the time. But reporting to electric company it was way outside toleranses and had to fix it. A lot of gear will be damaged, and tube guitar amps virtually rectifying grid power for anod voltage that is not stabilized, that affects tone seriously too.

Brian May uses a real expensive frequency converter so he always get 234 VAC 50 Hz whereever he goes in the world(around £2000) to power up his AC30's.
Last edited by lfm on Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdnz
KVRian
1004 posts since 3 Oct, 2011 from Christchurch, New Zealand

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:42 pm

lfm wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:29 pm In this way there is no switch time at all, not even a ms - it constantly works like that.
They are more expensive though, but found one that was really affordable($200 for 1000 VA). Enough to run my small studio(computer, 2 displays, 6 synths and guitar amp). Enough to run the whole lot 5 minutes or so to nicely shut down if power grid shuts down. But best was absolutely stable power all the time.
I presume you're using software on the pc so that as soon as the power drops out the PC hibernates - you can get away with really small battery ratings if you can live with that

Around here outages are either <15sec or >30mins - so having 5 mins of runtime on battery is moot, if the power's not back inside a minute it's not coming back any time soon

lfm
KVRAF
5827 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:02 pm

jdnz wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:42 pm
lfm wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:29 pm In this way there is no switch time at all, not even a ms - it constantly works like that.
They are more expensive though, but found one that was really affordable($200 for 1000 VA). Enough to run my small studio(computer, 2 displays, 6 synths and guitar amp). Enough to run the whole lot 5 minutes or so to nicely shut down if power grid shuts down. But best was absolutely stable power all the time.
I presume you're using software on the pc so that as soon as the power drops out the PC hibernates - you can get away with really small battery ratings if you can live with that

Around here outages are either <15sec or >30mins - so having 5 mins of runtime on battery is moot, if the power's not back inside a minute it's not coming back any time soon
I think it is meant to give time to nicely shut down in a controlled manner, so there is no outage and PC just suddenly reboot. Some pc's are really sensitive and reboot as you see bulbs flash a bit due to power changes on the grid, so real short outages puts you in the mess.

You can get the models with more external battery if to extend a bit.

To continue working long hours with no grid power that is another solution like hospitals need and such. Dieseldriven motors with generators and stuff.

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kingozrecords
KVRian
Topic Starter
1190 posts since 7 Apr, 2019 from Canada

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:08 am

jdnz wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:19 pm
kingozrecords wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:49 pm A ups won't do that, it's only theoretically, if dc current is directly attached to the bboard (alligator clips) that it could conceivably do that or your tower chassis is all steel and electrified with low level dc current, however; given the fact that a board is acid washed and given grounded and shielded circuitry that there's no way for that charge to go directly from the ups to the ssd. It's physically impossible unless you had a pcie card like this. A ups will however make the current quite a bit more stable and prolong the life of your ssd to an even greater extent. But.. that would also suggest that the connection to the ssd card was not grounded.
you obviously have zero electronics knowledge - if you don't understand how a UPS works, how the switchmode powersupply in your pc works and why it does exactly what I said I'd suggest you need to go do some reading.
You're mistaken, there's no physical connection to the card; there's no assurance that a ups can control the power to a pcie card and single it out, sending a low level dc voltage to it. There's no physical connection and there's no physical way that this can occur. However, like I said a UPS will ensure longer life.

I realize however, that there are various motherboards which can provide functionality such as this; but only for a built in interface and not for a custom pcie card.

Please remember that you're on a commercial site and leave that kind of rudeness out of My posts. There's hyde park for that, and then ultimately a new username and a new vpn/ip if it goes too far. I'm not some polite tart who's going to pucker in the face of competitive indignance.

And yes Pictus pcie 4.0 would be hot.
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jdnz
KVRian
1004 posts since 3 Oct, 2011 from Christchurch, New Zealand

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:47 am

kingozrecords wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:08 am You're mistaken, there's no physical connection to the card; there's no assurance that a ups can control the power to a pcie card and single it out, sending a low level dc voltage to it. There's no physical connection and there's no physical way that this can occur. However, like I said a UPS will ensure longer life.
you really do not have a single clue about electronics if that is what you believe - seriously, go do some studying and stop embarassing yourself

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Guenon
KVRAF
1837 posts since 17 Jun, 2005

Post Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:27 am

kingozrecords wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:08 am You're mistaken, there's no physical connection to the card; there's no assurance that a ups can control the power to a pcie card and single it out, sending a low level dc voltage to it. There's no physical connection and there's no physical way that this can occur.
This is misleading info if someone is considering UPS use. The UPS is in no way supposed to "control the power to a pcie card" during normal operation, either. The components in your computer are powered by the computer's power supply unit. That power supply unit, in turn, gets its power from the UPS. There is absolutely no need to somehow have a dedicated power lead from the UPS to a specific component inside the computer; again, if there was, that would be the case during normal operation as well.

From the point of view of your computer, the situation is 100% the same during an outage as when it is running normally, it's just the UPS providing stable power at all times, also when the power grid / wall outlet doesn't :)

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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
30920 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Post Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:45 am

Guenon wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:27 am
kingozrecords wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:08 am You're mistaken, there's no physical connection to the card; there's no assurance that a ups can control the power to a pcie card and single it out, sending a low level dc voltage to it. There's no physical connection and there's no physical way that this can occur.
This is misleading info if someone is considering UPS use. The UPS is in no way supposed to "control the power to a pcie card" during normal operation, either. The components in your computer are powered by the computer's power supply unit. That power supply unit, in turn, gets its power from the UPS. There is absolutely no need to somehow have a dedicated power lead from the UPS to a specific component inside the computer; again, if there was, that would be the case during normal operation as well.

From the point of view of your computer, the situation is 100% the same during an outage as when it is running normally, it's just the UPS providing stable power at all times, also when the power grid / wall outlet doesn't :)
Every foool know that the only way to make sure a computer component gets power properly is to weld a solid copper cable between it and the mains, preferably during a lightning storm. Looking forward to kingbozorecords video of this ASAP, I hear NASA say it stops SSD tapehead latency in the FAT32 capacitors too.
Probably not vurt.

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kingozrecords
KVRian
Topic Starter
1190 posts since 7 Apr, 2019 from Canada

Post Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:24 am

A UPS can control what it's governed to control and what a motherboard is designed to provide for a ups to control. There's no magic device allowing a ups to also control a pcie card's functions too, or power provided in 98% of cases. That's just impossible science fiction and a flight of fancy, I will not discuss it further. If you find a ups that can make My coffee and make Me eggs and toast I'll buy it.

The real problem though, is the inconsistency of AC current, regardless of sinusoidal wave enhancement; the current can still drop below levels at times to where it provides significant and necessary voltage for data congruity. I've seen many convincing videos suggesting that even in the face of sine wave ups; there is still at times strange blips in power, that are not complete power loss, merely a drop in power that seems significant still.

Why not try whyterabbyt's suggestions if you want dicy and innovative. They're not ups's... they control everything... mwuhahaha, no?
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Guenon
KVRAF
1837 posts since 17 Jun, 2005

Post Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:41 am

kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:24 am A UPS can control what it's governed to control and what a motherboard is designed to provide for a ups to control. There's no magic device allowing a ups to also control a pcie card's functions too, or power provided in 98% of cases. That's just impossible science fiction and a flight of fancy, I will not discuss it further. If you find a ups that can make My coffee and make Me eggs and toast I'll buy it.
 
Thank you for not discussing it further :tu:

Anyone considering UPS use can disregard the above as irrelevant, as it's written either with a completely different thing in mind (misunderstanding the whole UPS comment) - that's okay - or without actual knowledge on what UPS protection does and why it is used.

Just to make sure, kingozrecords, please just calmly reread the very first comment by jdnz, where it merely says: "The battery is to try and give some level of power loss protection, as mid-write power cuts can and will scramble consumer ssds. You can achieve the same by having your PC on a UPS." For some reason, you replied: "A ups won't do that, it's only theoretically, if dc current is directly attached to the bboard" ... You either misunderstood what was said, or really don't know what the UPS is supposed to do.

In any case, good that it was clarified, and you are letting it go. Cheers.

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