Mac vs PC (split from "Apple announce...")

Configure and optimize you computer for Audio.
jancivil
KVRAF
23615 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:03 pm

"they are constantly breaking compatibility with stuff every time they do an OS update."
stagnation of a whole industry, no less. :lol: You do you, but that's just clownish. In the realm we call reality, nothing has broken here since 2015 when I was on OSX.8.5 to today at OS11.6.1 except for two 32-bit things circa 2018 couldn't be helped after I bought a new computer, that I hadn't used since ca 2010-11. Cubase 11 blacklists harder than OSX or beyond at this point. Kore 2 finally wouldn't install on the 2019 16" MBP, and it was kilt by its maker in 2011.
I started moving to x64 in '09.

rezoneight
KVRian
635 posts since 18 Feb, 2004

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:14 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:39 pm
ShawnG wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:10 am
I'm upset that the thousand pound gorilla that is Apple is forcing a stagnation of a whole industry because they are constantly breaking compatibility with stuff every time they do an OS update.
You think the industry is stagnated? Seems to me we have never had it so good for synthesis and fx... both software and hardware.
Yeah I don’t get what he’s saying at all. I don’t see any stagnation and I certainly haven’t suffered anything other than a few 32-bit things that didn’t work anymore and one piece of hardware that Steinberg stopped supporting (UR-22). And frankly i could have made the choice to not update as often and none of that would have been an issue.

chk071
KVRAF
30690 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:19 pm

I wouldn't say that the industry is stagnating, but, it's surely one of the more slowly moving industries, with all those very small to, at best, lower mid tier businesses.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

echosystm
KVRist
163 posts since 24 Oct, 2006

Post Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:37 am

Any developer that can't keep their software running on MacOS is a bad developer. MacOS is, by far, the easiest desktop OS to support. It is a closed ecosystem. I can say this from experience, as a developer.

rezoneight
KVRian
635 posts since 18 Feb, 2004

Post Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:18 pm

Probably depends on the size of the catalog. A lot harder for someone like NI or Arturia I expect than a u-He.

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:20 am

ShawnG wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:26 pm
I Loved working in Logic. It still lives in my house in my daughter's studio on her iMac, Hate would definitely be too strong a word for how I feel about Mac OS or Apple as a whole, I've lost track of the number of iOS devices I've bought in the last 12 years. So don't count me among the haters per se. That said there are definite reasons why there's a Windows PC in my studio and no longer a MAC. Even still, I rarely get involved in the usual flamefests, it's a preference thing, and a control thing. I like making my PC, Apple doesn't let me do that, and music isn't the only thing I use my stuff for.

But as I check on what all my favorite developers are working on over the last number of years, it distresses me a great deal to find that usually they all have to be spending inordinate amounts of time patching whatever Apple just broke with their latest reinvention/update/whatever, and subsequently NOT working as much on things for everyone. Now sure, this sometimes happens with Windows, but not anywhere near the extent that Apple has to periodically hold the industry hostage with its proprietary environment. It's getting to the point where it seriously pisses me off, because it's affect is well beyond the users of the product. someone said earlier in the thread about apple users not needing to update the OS every time, and that's true, but developers can't ignore it. I'd love to hear some candid conversation from some of them concerning how they feel about constantly chasing that dragon.
Yours is just one person's experience. I don't have anywhere near the grief you are describing with macOS (or its development partners). After building PCs for years, I finally got sick and tired of the lack of accountability. There was no single party (ASUS, Nvidia, Windows, etc.) that I could turn to to help troubleshoot the myriad of problems I was experiencing. Now that I'm on a Mac, I have none of those problems and thus don't even need a single company to turn to.

Oh, and you know why software companies are willing to invest money and time in making sure their software is compatible with the latest releases from Apple? That because for every 1 paying customer on the Windows platform there are 10 more people using cracked copies of their software. Software developers understand that they make their MONEY on the Mac. It is Windows that is the burden.
Last edited by Gadget Fiend on Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Matrix-1000, MicroWave with Access programmer, MicroWave II, MKS-50 with MidiClub programmer, MKS-70, MKS-80 with Kiwi Patch Editor, Nord 2 Rack, Nord 3 Rack, Prophet REV2 module, Pulse 2, Shruthi, Virus TI

FarleyCZ
KVRian
992 posts since 26 Jun, 2008 from Czech Republic

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:23 am

Gonna jump in real quick. Macs are better for audio, yes. No doubt. They way of handling interruption based tasks is logically better as they have the whole system unter their control. The problem of "Nvidia or OEM ACPI driver causing DPC spike" is virtually non-existent there. No doubt about that. I will give them that.

BUT! ... what gets on my nerves about Mac users is that they don't understand, that Apple fixed and pre-configured a lot of stuff for them. To the point I literally had to explain to multiple producers/mixers what a buffer is. It's all fun and games until that unlikely event when something actually does break on Mac. Then you get an army of entitled laymen, who up until that point thought (and made sure to tell everyone) that they are on top of the technical game, calling their Windows friends asking what the hell is going on and if they can fix their computer. I swear every time a Mac user, who belittled me for chosing PC, calls me for help with their shiny Apple, I do help, but wholeheartedly laugh at their face for a good minute.

And yes. If you use only actively developed plugins, there is a big chance you've never been in a position that some of them stopped working. But on Windows, you don't have to care about their updates at all if you don't want to. All the stuff just keeps working. Yes. Macs are easier to setup. But with that ease come consequences. The picture of windows user constantly tinkering with settings instead of working in the DAW is just plain nonsense. You do that once. If on laptop, you might have to switch a power-mode in the traybar when on battery, but that's pretty much it. Please don't paint a wrong picture here.

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am

FarleyCZ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:23 am
BUT! ... what gets on my nerves about Mac users is that they don't understand, that Apple fixed and pre-configured a lot of stuff for them. To the point I literally had to explain to multiple producers/mixers what a buffer is. It's all fun and games until that unlikely event when something actually does break on Mac.
What's the big deal about changing the audio buffer size on a Mac? Most programs such as Cubase have their own control panel for doing so. So the process is exactly the same on a Mac as it is on Windows.
FarleyCZ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:23 am
And yes. If you use only actively developed plugins, there is a big chance you've never been in a position that some of them stopped working. But on Windows, you don't have to care about their updates at all if you don't want to. All the stuff just keeps working.
That's just not true. Plenty of stuff stops working on Windows even when Microsoft issues point updates of Windows 10. Unless your suggesting that everyone stay on Windows 7 so they can continue to run their shitty, outdated 32-bit plugins, then I don't know what you're talking about.
Matrix-1000, MicroWave with Access programmer, MicroWave II, MKS-50 with MidiClub programmer, MKS-70, MKS-80 with Kiwi Patch Editor, Nord 2 Rack, Nord 3 Rack, Prophet REV2 module, Pulse 2, Shruthi, Virus TI

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10691 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:51 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am
That's just not true. Plenty of stuff stops working on Windows even when Microsoft issues point updates of Windows 10. Unless your suggesting that everyone stay on Windows 7 so they can continue to run their shitty, outdated 32-bit plugins, then I don't know what you're talking about.
That's just not true. Name a few examples of things that stopped working with point updates in Windows 10, except for old faulty drivers in use (which would never be possible to use in macOS in the first place). :roll:

I have very old programs working here in Windows 10 (for example, SoundDiver, which was killed by Apple, or Extreme Sample Converter, or Audio-Term). Show me something like this in macOS (and it doesn't even need to be the most recent iteration).
Fernando (FMR)

FarleyCZ
KVRian
992 posts since 26 Jun, 2008 from Czech Republic

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:14 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am
What's the big deal about changing the audio buffer size on a Mac? Most programs such as Cubase have their own control panel for doing so. So the process is exactly the same on a Mac as it is on Windows.
Yes. But that is my point. You know that already, you're OK. But I swear I know people who call themselves an audio professionals and don't know what a buffer is. They didn't have to learn it because they used their Logics and ProToolses with the default settings for few years. I have no problem with that. Props to Apple that this is even possible to happen. I have a problem of them accusing me that I'm the dumb one that I don't use Apple just to ask about some basic questions later when they hit some HW or SW limit.
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am
FarleyCZ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:23 am
And yes. If you use only actively developed plugins, there is a big chance you've never been in a position that some of them stopped working. But on Windows, you don't have to care about their updates at all if you don't want to. All the stuff just keeps working.
That's just not true. Plenty of stuff stops working on Windows even when Microsoft issues point updates of Windows 10. Unless your suggesting that everyone stay on Windows 7 so they can continue to run their shitty, outdated 32-bit plugins, then I don't know what you're talking about.
Drivers may be. I did need to update those, yes. But for the application layer? Bro. I have rich GUI programs I've written in Delphi (pretty much dead programming language) almost 20 years ago, perfectly running in Win 11. With no change, no recompile. Try that on Mac.
Out of approx 200-250 plugins I own, in 12 years I'm in the audio field, I've got ONE (old and kinda shitty coded hammond emulator) that stopped working. I've got original dlls coded in 2007 by a dead developer, later just recompiled to x64 by fan comunity with no code change, that runs four system versions down the road.

...btw these days I'm working for a company poroviding support to both Mac and Windows equipped studios. Once I got into that company, one of the first directives was: "If on Mac, discuss with a client the posbility of turning the updates off. It saves trouble." Sooo ... yeah. Whatever Apple wrote (Logic, FinalCut etc...) works a charm after every update. But rest of the developers are fixing problems caused by API changesin MacOS all the time.

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:07 am

fmr wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:51 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am
That's just not true. Plenty of stuff stops working on Windows even when Microsoft issues point updates of Windows 10. Unless your suggesting that everyone stay on Windows 7 so they can continue to run their shitty, outdated 32-bit plugins, then I don't know what you're talking about.
That's just not true. Name a few examples of things that stopped working with point updates in Windows 10, except for old faulty drivers in use (which would never be possible to use in macOS in the first place). :roll:

I have very old programs working here in Windows 10 (for example, SoundDiver, which was killed by Apple, or Extreme Sample Converter, or Audio-Term). Show me something like this in macOS (and it doesn't even need to be the most recent iteration).
FYI, SoundDiver doesn't work on Windows 10 (nor on Windows 8 unless you install a special "help" file extension). I know this because I have tried it on two different Windows 10 systems. But not all is lost. A Mac-only app called "Patch Base" has been adding devices to its platform for the past couple of years. It's hardly perfect and the coverage of devices is still limited compared to SoundDiver. But by any objective measure Patch Base is the new SoundDiver. So who cares about a 30 year old Windows-only program that was buggy as hell even on its 3.0 release.

I would rather use modern programs than some abandonware shite that just barely, barely runs on modern computers. If I need an old program that badly, I will hang on to an old computer dedicated to that program.
Matrix-1000, MicroWave with Access programmer, MicroWave II, MKS-50 with MidiClub programmer, MKS-70, MKS-80 with Kiwi Patch Editor, Nord 2 Rack, Nord 3 Rack, Prophet REV2 module, Pulse 2, Shruthi, Virus TI

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:32 am

FarleyCZ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:14 am
...btw these days I'm working for a company poroviding support to both Mac and Windows equipped studios. Once I got into that company, one of the first directives was: "If on Mac, discuss with a client the posbility of turning the updates off. It saves trouble." Sooo ... yeah. Whatever Apple wrote (Logic, FinalCut etc...) works a charm after every update. But rest of the developers are fixing problems caused by API changesin MacOS all the time.
That's just stupid (and although Macs are almost immune to viruses, possibly dangerous). Mac system updates don't wreak havoc. That's a proven fact. Your company's IT staff are a bunch of ignorant Microsoft-licking fools. You should be embarrassed to spread their nonsense.
Matrix-1000, MicroWave with Access programmer, MicroWave II, MKS-50 with MidiClub programmer, MKS-70, MKS-80 with Kiwi Patch Editor, Nord 2 Rack, Nord 3 Rack, Prophet REV2 module, Pulse 2, Shruthi, Virus TI

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10691 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:42 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:07 am
fmr wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:51 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 am
That's just not true. Plenty of stuff stops working on Windows even when Microsoft issues point updates of Windows 10. Unless your suggesting that everyone stay on Windows 7 so they can continue to run their shitty, outdated 32-bit plugins, then I don't know what you're talking about.
That's just not true. Name a few examples of things that stopped working with point updates in Windows 10, except for old faulty drivers in use (which would never be possible to use in macOS in the first place). :roll:

I have very old programs working here in Windows 10 (for example, SoundDiver, which was killed by Apple, or Extreme Sample Converter, or Audio-Term). Show me something like this in macOS (and it doesn't even need to be the most recent iteration).
FYI, SoundDiver doesn't work on Windows 10 (nor on Windows 8 unless you install a special "help" file extension).
I don't know what you're talking about. It works here.

And I looked at your "Patch Base". Not only it has a limited coverage, it's GUI is ridiculous. I would rather use SoundDiver than that Sh!t.
Fernando (FMR)

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:20 am

fmr wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:42 am
I don't know what you're talking about. It works here.

And I looked at your "Patch Base". Not only it has a limited coverage, it's GUI is ridiculous. I would rather use SoundDiver than that Sh!t.
SoundDiver will install on Windows 10 and even open its main window. But have you actually tried to edit and save a patch under Windows 10? Windows 10 dropped support for HLP files which is the format in which SoundDiver stores its help text files. But Microsoft dropped support for HLP files in Windows 10. Google it.

Regarding the Patch Base GUI, I think you are so used to looking at the craptastic SoundDiver editors that you have lost sight of what a usable GUI looks like. FYI, Patch Base is also compatible with iOS devices and as such follows some of those touch-OS UI conventions.
Matrix-1000, MicroWave with Access programmer, MicroWave II, MKS-50 with MidiClub programmer, MKS-70, MKS-80 with Kiwi Patch Editor, Nord 2 Rack, Nord 3 Rack, Prophet REV2 module, Pulse 2, Shruthi, Virus TI

ShawnG
KVRian
987 posts since 27 Apr, 2005

Post Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:45 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:20 am
That because for every 1 paying customer on the Windows platform there are 10 more people using cracked copies of their software.
You made that up.

There are loads of cracks available for Mac programs, and while the affluence level required to afford a mac usually indicates an affluence level that would be less likely to use cracks, the numbers you quoted are ridiculous, and further, that concern has zero bearing on why developers in this particular industry bend over backwards to support Macs. To Apple's credit, they focused on creative software, where windows tries to be a jack of all trades. which means that Mac's out of the box require less configuration for audio and video work. which makes Mac's market share among creative types WAY higher than their market share for the rest of the planet. If Music was the ONLY thing I did with my PC, I might deal with the crap I hate about Mac and own one again.

But as nobody seems to understand my actual point, or is so tribe invested that they don't want to listen I will happily bow out, not like any of us can do anything about it anyway. back to ignoring mac vs pc threads! :)

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