Rests Variation ... more ungrateful whining

[como baila]

First, for something really cool, try this.

On a finger picking phrase add a rest variation, move the beat where you like and click the 'Allow Notes To Restart After Rest' option. Now in the midst of your finger picking pattern, after the rest all the notes will ring out in a chord ... just like a guitarist might do it. Sounds fantastic!!

It also looks like there is some type of track midi lane control when you click on the icon to the left of the labels ... but I haven't had a chance to suss that out yet.

Back to the whining ... there needs to be more rest values. A beat is not small enough. The rests should at least go down to a 1/16th.

(Edit) Oops ... this was wrong. There is a light blue box around the selected rest nested under the label. It does work to remove one at a time. What I wrote wrong:"If you add a second rest, it is nested under the first nest label ... so you can't remove it if you don't like it, but have to remove the whole variation and start over." (Edit complete)

[musicdevelopments]

No problem, now I make sure to ask you: which rest values would you like to have? Do you mean 1/16th note (1/4th beat) or 1/16th beat? Maybe the slider could go from 1/4th beat to 8 beats with 1/4th beat increments?
Please let me know. My aim is to create something usable.

Yes, that is nested, but why? It will be fixed shortly...

Thanks,
Attila

[como baila]

No problem, now I make sure to ask you: which rest values would you like to have? Do you mean 1/16th note (1/4th beat) or 1/16th beat? Maybe the slider could go from 1/4th beat to 8 beats with 1/4th beat increments?
Please let me know. My aim is to create something usable.

Yes, that is nested, but why? It will be fixed shortly...

Thanks,
Attila

Thanks for your ... as usual ... 'rapid' response and 'rapid' development! I think a 1/4 beat (1/16th note) minimum rest size would be adequate 99.9% of the time. Perfect for me.

Others' thoughts?

[tonedef71]

I think a 1/4 beat (1/16th note) minimum rest size would be adequate 99.9% of the time. Perfect for me.

Others' thoughts?

I concur that a 1/4 beat (1/16th note) is generally adequate as a minimum rest size, but a 1/8 beat (1/32nd note) would be more flexible (decent for very slow tempos).


BTW, just wondering... how well does RC support irregular note/rest lengths such as tuplets (quarter, 8th and 16th note triplets, etc.) and dotted notes (single- and double-dotted; from half notes all the way down to at least eighth notes) with its sliders?

With a 1/256th beat (1/1024th note!!!) snap resolution (0.00390625 beats total), I am guessing it could support them just fine.

3 triplet quarters (3:2) = 2/3 beat + 2/3 beat + 2/3 beat (2 beats total)
3 triplet eighths (3:2) = 1/3 beat + 1/3 beat + 1/3 beat (1 beat total)
3 triplet sixteenths (3:2) = 1/6 beat + 1/6 beat + 1/6 beat (1/2 beat total)
6 sextuplet quarters (6:4) = 2/3 beat x 6 (4 beats total)
6 sextuplet eighths (6:4) = 1/3 beat x 6 (2 beats total)
6 sextuplet sixteenths (6:4) = 1/6 beat x 6 (1 beat total)
single dotted half = half + quarter (3 beats total)
double dotted half = half + quarter + eighth (3.5 beats total)
single dotted quarter = quarter + eighth (1.5 beats total)
double dotted quarter = quarter + eighth + sixteenth (1.75 beats total)
single dotted eighth = eighth + sixteenth (0.75 beats total)
double dotted eighth = eighth + sixteenth + thirty-secondth (0.875 beats total)

[como baila]

Tony ...

I don't know you, but I could pick you out in a crowd right now. There would be steam rising from the top of your head, 'cause your brain is smokin!'

Yes of course, dotted notes and other 'irregular' note types need be on the development path.

[musicdevelopments]

I have an idea, and I need feedback on it.

Would it be useful if each track has a 'division' setting, which describes how notes are grouped in it?
Each phrase added will automatically use the track 'division' setting. To have a simple example: if you add a Chord Generator to a '3 triplet quarters' track, it will consist of 3 times 2/3 beat long notes.

Maybe it would be even better if parts and lines could have their own division settings. I think rhythm can change, and some parts could use triplets while other parts use single dotted notes as the rhythm base.

So what do you think, would it make sense?

Thanks!
Attila

[themixtape]

Sounds confusing to me, but sounds insanely powerful!!!

[como baila]

I have an idea, and I need feedback on it.

Would it be useful if each track has a 'division' setting, which describes how notes are grouped in it?
Each phrase added will automatically use the track 'division' setting. To have a simple example: if you add a Chord Generator to a '3 triplet quarters' track, it will consist of 3 times 2/3 beat long notes.

Maybe it would be even better if parts and lines could have their own division settings. I think rhythm can change, and some parts could use triplets while other parts use single dotted notes as the rhythm base.

So what do you think, would it make sense?

Thanks!
Attila

I am trying to get my head around all of this ... and am ignorant of the coding requirements of different development approaches: so I can only speak to this conceptually.

It seems we are broaching three different issues that interact, but stand on their own: dotted notes; tuplets/ triplets; and, rests (which could also be dotted).

If I understand you, you are here talking only about the tuplet/ triplet issue.

The question for me is whether one would ever be playing straight 1/8th notes on one track while playing triplet 1/8ths on another?

If this is a likely scenario/ use, then the track by track division setting where you specify the start and end bar number of each change would be indicated.

If this is a seldom or never used practice, then I think instead of a track by track you would better have a master track like with the chord harmony that applied to all tracks.

For the dotted notes and rests, I would think of those more as something that would be a setting within the generators themselves ... something on the 'Permit' dotted notes' and 'Permit up to 'n' rests' in the generator. I see dotted notes and rests interacting, as adding dotted notes creates more permutations in which the one or two bars will not sum to an even, whole number of beats ... perfect for rests.

Perhaps after I finish my morning coffee I will realize ... to my horror ... that I have written some nonsense! So, if you see some edits ...

[tonedef71]

At the core, I think it all does come down to how RC handles rhythm in general, for both notes and rests. For example, with Piano-Roll style editing, meter that is adjustable on a bar-by-bar basis, and a decent-sized pulses-per-quarter-note (PPQN) resolution is all you really need. For staff notation, algorithmic generation rules, VST syncing to host tempo, etc., I think more consideration is required to get rhythm handling done in the most flexible to handle speedy guitar solos, world percussion rhythms, etc.

The different rhythmic possibilities in use today is noteworthy. I have seen notation with tuplets bracketed with a ratio of 5:4 (five notes in the time of four).


In a song, you certainly could have a drum track with a drummer playing a beat containing triplets and a bass track with the bass player playing straight eighth notes. It makes for an interesting rhythmic feel (e.g. shuffles and syncopated accents).


Another example:


Any individual phrase could have a combination of different division ratios (polyrhythm). For example, a single 4/4 meter bar could contain a tuple bracketing three eighth notes (one beat; a 3:2 ratio), followed by a quarter rest (one beat; a 1:1 ratio), followed by another tuple bracketing six eighth notes (two beats; a 6:4 ratio, i.e. six notes in the time of four, similar to two sets of triplets). So in that one bar, you had three 1/3 beat pulses, one whole beat pulse, and six 1/3 beat pulses, for a total of 10 pulses of two different sizes (whole and 1/3):


Of course, there is more to rhythm than just the timing -- where the accents fall is equally important. Perhaps a way to specify which divisions to accent/stress along with the specification of the division ratio as well -- just not sure how to represent that easily in the UI.

Attila's idea of a per-phrase rhythmic division ratio setting is a good one. One way to configure it in the UI would be by specifying the common denominator for the smallest pulse interval along with a list of the weighted numerators. Here the pulse sizes are with respect to the specified meter. This requires a bit of math on the user's part, though.

(specification for rhythm of one bar phrase)

The global meter set at the beginning of the composition would always be the fall back for each track, with each individual phrase having the ability to alter the default rhythm. If the rhythm needed to change for each bar, such as is the case with a meter change, I guess the user would need to create a new phrase every time that happened. Hmm... does working with one-bar phrases pose a problem for folks?

[tonedef71]

** EDIT: Moved a revised version of this post to the Feature Request thread **

[musicdevelopments]

Thank you, Tony. Storing rhythm presets is on the to-do list for some time. Several people asked for this, so it would be important to add in the next update. I don't know if a Rhythm Browser is needed of just a menu to quickly recall stored rhythm patterns. On the other hand I could implement it similar to phrases (rhythms go to own directory, each in its own file...) so I can add a Rhythm Browser later.

One thing became clear, and I am glad you posted feedback. My idea of tracks having a division is simply wrong. More flexibility is needed, that is specifying division at the phrase level. Basically for each phrase generator
- first you choose a count and a division (e.g. 4 times '3 triplet eighths')
- then you generate the rhythm or manually edit it. The length and division is known before this step for the rhythm generator
- then you can generate a phrase as before

For normal phrases (not generators) you would
- you choose a count and a division (e.g. twice 'single dotted half')
- manually edit it in the Phrase Editor

It will be the more flexible, because you can even have two phrases next to each other with different divisions.

Does this make sense?
Thank you!
Attila

[tonedef71]

... specifying division at the phrase level. Basically for each phrase generator
- first you choose a count and a division (e.g. 4 times '3 triplet eighths')
- then you generate the rhythm or manually edit it. The length and division is known before this step for the rhythm generator
- then you can generate a phrase as before

For normal phrases (not generators) you would
- you choose a count and a division (e.g. twice 'single dotted half')
- manually edit it in the Phrase Editor

It will be the more flexible, because you can even have two phrases next to each other with different divisions.

Does this make sense?
Thank you!
Attila

Yes. It had later occurred to me that the Phrase Editor offered the most flexible way to create rhythms. I had wondered if a previous version of RC allowed a user to just use the rhythm from a previously saved phrase (I saw additional options for the Rhythm Generator drop-down in one of Chris's videos).

By the way, I fleshed out my ideas for this a bit more and moved my forum post to the Feature Request thread.