Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
18491 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:13 pm

So... have you tried the Metal Rhythm snapshot we were talking about or not? Palm mute in that one matches that of S2 and then some.

Also regarding rhythm articulations, maybe check out this video as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qAhygo ... Dd&index=1
progtronic wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 am
Lots of issues.. but the main one for me, right now.. is the release behavior. The immediate cut-off on release, particularly on the 'sustain' articulation.. is, really strange. Just about every articulation should have some form of release setting.
Sustain articulation doesn't really need a long release, there are pitched and unpitched release samples that are used instead. However in an update, TACT will get a new tab to adjust ADSR per articulation, so that might get you going.

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progtronic
KVRian
539 posts since 27 Jul, 2010

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:43 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:13 pm
So... have you tried the Metal Rhythm snapshot we were talking about or not? Palm mute in that one matches that of S2 and then some...
I have.. they really don't match.

Here's how I'm testing these against each other:

One instance of Kontakt with 'Shreddage 3 Serpent' loaded. Metal Rhythm & Sus+Mute Vel Switch TACT loaded. Set 'Multi-Tracking' to just one guitar.

Another instance of Kontakt with 'Shreddage 2 SRP (V1_15)' loaded.

0-DB limiter on each insert. A Brainworx ENGL E646 VS (stock/default setting) in front of each of those.

Play something riffy and chunky in the low velocity range.. and switch back and forth between the two setups.

The S3 setup sounds completely 'quacky', abrupt and artificial.. in comparison to the S2's quite warm and realistic sound.
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:13 pm
...Sustain articulation doesn't really need a long release, there are pitched and unpitched release samples that are used instead. However in an update, TACT will get a new tab to adjust ADSR per articulation, so that might get you going.
It does need at least some release. Right now it has absolutely none. It should at least have as much as the Mute articulations have available. Which isn't much.. but it would really be better than nothing.

In fact.. the contrast of the mutes, with a mild release, against the no-release dryness of the sustains, played back to back in a velocity sensitive/articulation switching riff.. is really jarring.

An ADSR dedicated to each articulation would absolutely fix this.. as long as there's enough release to work with. Too much would be best.. as it can always be dialed back.

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
18491 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:54 am

Sustain groups actually do have some release time set up - about 40 ms. PM groups have about 100 ms of release time. So not really a huge difference (and 100 ms release is not what I would call "mild"). Feel free to go into instrument edit mode by clicking on the wrench and tweak this yourself in a jiffy until the update.

Also...
progtronic wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 am
S3 gives a very brief overview and not enough detail for any real deep editing.
This is absolutely not true. There's plenty of options to deep edit things (TACT itself is more advanced than anything E6 has as far as articulation switching is concerned - or any other virtual guitar for that matter).
progtronic wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 am
Also.. the 'tightness / vel-tight' settings seem backward in how they function. I would expect tighter results at low velocities and have it open up (and lengthen) a bit at higher velocities.
Tightness knob works as intended - the higher the value, the tighter the mutes are (basically adjusts decay and sustain parameters of Mute articulation's envelope in tandem). If you set Tightness knob to minimum and enable Vel > Tight, it will work as you want - tight mutes with low velocities and longer mutes with higher velocities.

Note that it also matters which palm mute layers are triggered at which velocities, which you adjust in Tables sub-tab of TACT tab (the "Mute Level" table).

To me it sounds like you're not triggering the same palm mute levels between S2 and S3.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

pryzmusic
KVRer
13 posts since 27 Mar, 2019

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:12 am

Hi progtronic,

We are adding ADSR per articulation in an update. However it is trivially easy to access already. Go into the Kontakt wrench, group editor, checkmark the Sustain groups. Scroll down to open the modulations and turn up the Release knob.

Before doing that, it sounds like you aren’t triggering the actual recorded releases for the sustains at all. Check your release time windows on the main tab, advanced page to make sure your notes are falling in the window. You can also increase the volume of the releases on the last page of TACT.

I also very much urge you to heed the most important advice that the mapping of the mute layers is completely different in both products. Shreddage 3 Serpent cut extra layers on individual notes to have a standard number across all of them, so that you can control exactly what layer you want no matter what string or key the performance is in. You can not play the same MIDI in both and expect the same sound. You have to learn Shreddage 3 as a new product and learn what mute layers have the sound you are looking for. (To be clear, they largely are the same samples, just require different velocities to get to them.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vj85rmz3mpgs4 ... n.wav?dl=0

Here is an example side by side intentionally triggering the same mute layer in both products. I did this by selecting a sound in SRP, and then seeking the mute layer in the Shreddage 3 TACT mute layer table until I found the one that SRP was triggering. This is of course using the "Metal Rhythms" Style snapshot which prevents extraneous release noises at this speed of riffing.

Here is a look at the comparison waveforms, unamped. They are virtually identical, besides a slight stereo field anomaly in SRP that is not present in Shreddage 3 Serpent.
Capture.PNG
As far as playback settings and configuration is concerned (ADSR, offset, tightness), this is scientifically sufficient to say there is no perceivable difference between SRP and Serpent sample playback, once the different mute layer mapping is accounted for. As such, there is nothing further we can do. If you truly feel SRP has a superior sound in spite of this, there's nothing wrong with you continuing to use it. It may simply be you happened to be using the extra layers that were cut and liked their sound.
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progtronic
KVRian
539 posts since 27 Jul, 2010

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm

Trying to help out here guys...

This topic was started for a reason, and I didn't actually start it. I believe this issue will come up a lot in the future with a lot of new users.

Also.. these are your stock settings I'm addressing here. Asking me to tweak anything, beyond the defaults, which you claim sound exactly like the previous release.. so that it will sound like the previous release.. is really weird.

Also, also.. Science is not 'Art'. because it works well on paper, does not mean that will translate well once it hits your ears. That was my point in a previous post when I said you should consider programming outside the 'rules' in order to help achieve an actually more realistic sound.

Anyway.. Yes, I could go under the hood/wrench and start tweaking.. but that's not the point. And not what I think most people are going to want to have to resort to, to get a reasonable starting point.

Electri6ity has it's own issues (nothing is perfect), regardless of the extended tweakability. However.. it's preset velocity articulation spread (Mtd.<->Sus./Half-Mtd., independent articulation retriggers, etc...), just works out of the box. The calibration section (in general) allows for a nice variety of articulation trigger manipulation.

TACT is great, but it needs some work. ADSR additions will be awesome. I'd also like to see some velocity curve options (not tables... see below) with weighting percentages and such.. added at some point as well.

Don't even get me started on the 'Tables' tab though.. nothing about how that section operates really works for me. Struggling with trying to draw in anything, without having the feeling of it constantly fighting back. I like the concept.. but the execution needs a ton of work.

Looking at the stock settings in 'Tables', I assume there are 6 levels of mutes? And you can tweak which mute articulation is triggered at what velocity? Or, no.. wait.. Are the velocities pre-determined on some percentage-like scale and you are adjusting the curve between them?!.. And what is up with the upper/lower selection in trying to draw in (or out) stuff in these boxes?!! I really have no idea. The TACT 2 manual doesn't really help me much. Honestly I'd rather just see all the mute articulations broken out into their own separate 'Rules' along with everything else.

Regarding other libraries that offer articulation mapping.. I really think Orange Tree has the most straight forward, user friendly experience for setting up velocity layers. Between that and their curve weighting, it's really easy to get what you are going for.. with very little effort.

We'll have to agree, to disagree on the 'tightness' issue. Having tightness increase between notes, based on speed of note triggers.. in order to add some clarity in faster passages, makes sense. But just feels (and sounds) wrong when applied to basic velocity. Just turning it all the way down and enabling the Vel button, sort of works.. I guess. I'd just like the same control the dial offers, but in the opposite direction.

pryzmusic
KVRer
13 posts since 27 Mar, 2019

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:36 pm

progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Also.. these are your stock settings I'm addressing here. Asking me to tweak anything, beyond the defaults, which you claim sound exactly like the previous release.. so that it will sound like the previous release.. is really weird.
You weren't asked to tweak anything. The default instrument out of the box sounds like Shreddage 2 SRP identically once the "Metal Rhythms" preset is applied to configure it for riffs instead of lead playing. All Shreddage 2 users have been informed of this. The Metal Rhythms preset was created in an update for Shreddage 2 users who preferred their instrument to be primarily configured for tight rhythm guitar playing.

New Shreddage 3 customers don't have these issues because they aren't trying to make it sound like a product they are used to, they are simply using a new product. It is an issue isolated to the transition of users from Shreddage 2 to Shreddage 3. We would've liked to make this easier, but in order to progress, there had to be some small inconvenience for Shreddage 3 not to be hampered by legacy concerns. We feel the "Metal Rhythms" preset is easy enough to apply and move on.

Serpent uses the same samples as SRP, but it is not the same product. It has a different brain, different features, and different defaults. As such, both new customers and Shreddage 2 customers alike need to simply approach it like a product they have never seen before. On the bright side, every Shreddage 3 instrument works exactly the same, whereas the Shreddage 2 guitars had anomalous inconsistencies between them.
progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Also, also.. Science is not 'Art'. because it works well on paper, does not mean that will translate well once it hits your ears. That was my point in a previous post when I said you should consider programming outside the 'rules' in order to help achieve an actually more realistic sound.
If you're interested in programming Shreddage 3 for the most realistic sound with minimal tweaking, consider watching our Shreddage 3 Masterclass. I get the feeling you are putting in extra hard work but simply focusing on the wrong aspects of the software. Learning it as a new product will help focus on how to accomplish results in the S3 engine - which may not necessarily be transferable skills from other guitar libraries you are used to - with relatively low effort compared to other guitar libraries.
progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Anyway.. Yes, I could go under the hood/wrench and start tweaking.. but that's not the point. And not what I think most people are going to want to have to resort to, to get a reasonable starting point.
Under the hood, the mute release time is similar to Shreddage 2 SRP (actually it is a small bit longer, which is a slight improvement in the S3 version), which you said has a warm, realistic sound. I gave an example showing it is the exact same sound in Shreddage 3 Serpent, and so you don't have to tweak anything to get that sound. You do need to write a different MIDI part that triggers the mute layers you want, as they're not in the same spots. This is part of learning what the instrument sounds like with a given input.

The offer for under the hood tweaking was in response to your complaint that there was no way to do it, as it seemed like you that is what you were asking for.
progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Electri6ity has it's own issues (nothing is perfect), regardless of the extended tweakability. However.. it's preset velocity articulation spread (Mtd.<->Sus./Half-Mtd., independent articulation retriggers, etc...), just works out of the box. The calibration section (in general) allows for a nice variety of articulation trigger manipulation.
The Vel split for mutes and sustains also works out of the box! Simply open the snapshot menu, go to _TACT, and hit "Sus+Mute Vel Switch". The default is configured for MIDI sequencing keyswitches as that is a popular and more controllable method of using Shreddage, and it merely takes a couple seconds to switch to the more performance based setup. If it really is bothersome that you would start with a keyswitch mapping by default, you can also resave your nki once the mapping is applied so you don't have to deal with it ever again.
progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Looking at the stock settings in 'Tables', I assume there are 6 levels of mutes? And you can tweak which mute articulation is triggered at what velocity? Or, no.. wait.. Are the velocities pre-determined on some percentage-like scale and you are adjusting the curve between them?!.. And what is up with the upper/lower selection in trying to draw in (or out) stuff in these boxes?!! I really have no idea. The TACT 2 manual doesn't really help me much. Honestly I'd rather just see all the mute articulations broken out into their own separate 'Rules' along with everything else.
Your first intuition was correct! I'm not sure why you questioned yourself after the fact. The table is a simple mapping of the 127 velocities to the 7 mute layers (the "empty" height is the tightest mute layer). The drawing method is a side effect of Kontakt's inability to discretely quantize table steps. We can change this in the future if Native Instruments improves the widget. Until then, it will take a little bit of jiggling to get the right step level. I find it is easier if I move the mouse a little slower.

In cases like the Sus+Mute Vel Switch mapping, the velocity responses (mute layer and tightness) are squished to the range the mutes are mapped to. This is a shared behavior from Shreddage 2 and it is shown in the engaged button "Vel Scaling" under Volume and Offset.
progtronic wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
Just turning it all the way down and enabling the Vel button, sort of works.. I guess. I'd just like the same control the dial offers, but in the opposite direction.
That is exactly what happens, and I have verified this in the code. Unless you mean you would like the knob itself to act in reverse, but this would be bad UX. If I am increasing a knob to make something tighter, that means that turning the knob up makes the sound shorter. The velocity mode acts in reverse, with higher velocities at looser (longer sounds) and lower velocities at tighter sounds.

There are many complicated topics in deep tweaking of Shreddage 3's behavior. However, the out-of-box experience is designed so that you never have to deal with changing any settings, save for just a few necessary ones - for example, release time windows are essential to control the "sloppiness" of the performance based on what the producer feels is right. Not only do I change these per song I write, I also change them for each instrument patch in the song based on the part being played. There is no one-size-fits-all setting. As I have shown, once we addressed the initial complaints from S2 users by offering the legacy preset ("Metal Rhythms"), there is no longer any barrier in achieving the same sound as the original product - so long as users write MIDI's for Shreddage 3 and not attempt to import older ones.

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progtronic
KVRian
539 posts since 27 Jul, 2010

Re: Massive problem with palm muting in Shreddage III (Serpent)

Post Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:53 pm

Thanks pryzmusic, for taking the time to write all that up.

If you check back a few post you'll see I did, in fact.. set everything up as you described, and still couldn't get the proper results. The test I setup, did not match S2's SRP stock setup.

The TACT 2 info you provided, is particularly helpful. The manuals really need to go into more depth.

I've popped the hood and tweaked a few things in order to better match what I was trying to go for initially. That, along with some general tweaking through the various interface tabs.. I've been able to get much better results.

I can say for sure now.. that adding an ADSR feature to the articulations in TACT, will solve a lot of issues myself and others were experiencing. Most of my under the hood tweaks were 'release' related, on several groups of samples.

If you or anyone else is interested in the tweaks I've done (for Serpent, Rogue & Jupiter), you can download the files HERE.

Thanks for all the feedback and input you guys. It's nice to deal with a company that will seriously interact with its customers, and help to resolve issues like this. :tu:

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