Waveform Problem Plugins

Discussion about: tracktion.com
jabe
KVRAF
1973 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK

Post Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:49 pm

dellboy wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:19 am
jabe wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:01 pm
(and one can hardly blame Tracktion for correctly following the VST protocols), I have no idea, but if it were the case, the Juce modules would need changing to allow the shoddy plug-ins to work. I can't really see Juce slackening its standards, so there may be something of an impasse.

I do blame Tracktion for not making my paid for plugin work in a DAW that I paid for.

I have zero interest in excuses about Tracktion being a superior DAW and blocking a "shoddy" plugin that runs ok in every other DAW you care to name.

As for Tracktion being written in Juce,my memory is that Julian only started to develop that after he sold Tracktion to Mackie. So the original Tracktion was not written in Juce because it did not exist back then.

*edit:

I have an old CD with Tracktion 1.6 on it and it installed on Windows 10 with no problems. I scanned my old 32bit directory with Air Strike 32 bit in it and it works fine in Tracktion 1.6. Theres progress for you.



jules wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:38 am
vitocorleone123 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:35 am
Waveform 10 crashes regularly and almost always says it's the fault of a plugin.... but it's a different plugin every time. Or different list of them.
Sigh... the frustrating thing for us is that it IS almost always the fault of a plugin. But we end up getting blamed!

This has always been a massive annoyance, so we added code to detect where a crash happens, so that we can at least tell the users when it's not our fault, and tell them which plugin crashed...

..but nobody believes it! They still blame us, as you've just demonstrated!

The misunderstanding is this: If you load a plugin in Ableton, Logic or Cubase, you can bet that the plugin company tested it heavily in those DAWs, and fixed all the bugs they found, so you'll probably not see many problems in those hosts.

However, that plugin could be riddled with undetected bugs which only get triggered by tiny differences in the way other DAWs use them, but which never got spotted because plugin makers simply don't have the time or patience to test them in every single DAW and host that's out there. I bet most plugins are released without EVER been loaded in Waveform at all.

So then, maddeningly, when a user sees a plugin that crashes in Waveform but not in Ableton, Logic, etc, they (understandably from their point of view!) blame Waveform, and moan to us rather than the plugin company, so the people who could fix the bug never even get told about it!

Dave has done huge amounts of work over the last couple of years to try to get us out of this situation - he's created tools for plugin manufacturers to use to test their plugins better, he's done loads of work on making Waveform recover more robustly when things do go wrong, and made many other stability fixes internally, as well as adding analytics to help us quickly find and fix problems, and we're aiming to have sandboxing at some point before too long, so I really feel I need to step in here and put the record straight!

And please believe us: if Waveform tells you that a plugin has crashed, it's not making that up!
vitocorleone123 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:35 am
And these are quality, professional plugins like Pro-Q2.
I've seen the insides of many codebases in my long career, and I can assure you that there is ZERO correlation between how "professional" a plugin appears to be, and how well-written the code actually is. Some of the most highly respected plugins out there are full of horrifyingly poor-quality code!

"The misunderstanding is this: If you load a plugin in Ableton, Logic "or Cubase, you can bet that the plugin company tested it heavily in those DAWs, and fixed all the bugs they found, so you'll probably not see many problems in those hosts."
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10, 32&64, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.

JamminFool
KVRian
1133 posts since 16 Apr, 2004

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:20 am

The problem is that when I, for example, report to Roland Cloud that there is a problem with their plugin in Waveform, they literally respond with something like: "We don't support that host. Use Ableton or Logic, or whatever".

And that ends it. They won't even investigate the issue. And in the end, the user gets frustrated and uses the host that works with plugins.

You end up freezing yourself out even though you are absolutely correct in the details.

Just saying, because I really want you guys to succeed.

dellboy
KVRian
1118 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:31 am

So we now have a good explanation of the problem.

So whats the solution ?

jabe
KVRAF
1973 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:45 am

The Tracktion devs do try to talk with the plug-in devs when they can.

As for Dellboy's recent case with a plug-in that is said to have been working as recently as 9.3.2, I'd expect the T devs to sort it. Anyone can download and test the PluginVal software, and if that accepts the Air Strike plug-in, I guess the T devs will be the ones that need to fix it.
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10, 32&64, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.

bburtin
KVRist
182 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Mountain View, CA

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:40 pm

Thinking outside the box, since it doesn't sound like the problem will be fixed any time soon: I've heard that there are plugins that load other plugins, for the purpose of making racks, etc. Has anyone experimented with this? I wonder if a workaround could be to load problematic plugins inside another plugin.

Kott
KVRist
128 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 pm

bburtin wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:40 pm
I've heard that there are plugins that load other plugins, for the purpose of making racks, etc. Has anyone experimented with this?
Yes
https://kx.studio/Applications:Carla

fedexnman
KVRAF
2615 posts since 4 Jan, 2005

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:58 pm

DDMF meta plugin ..... MuTools mux ....

bburtin
KVRist
182 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Mountain View, CA

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:21 pm

Thanks guys. I downloaded Carla for Windows 64-bit and only see an LV2 version of the plugin. I'm guessing that won't work with Waveform. But DDMF Metaplugin looks promising. I'll give it a shot.

fedexnman
KVRAF
2615 posts since 4 Jan, 2005

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:54 pm

Yeah DDMF metaplugin is bad to the bone it has a bit bridge in it to so you can have your 32 bit plugins work in your 64 bit host . ... I haven't purchased it yet .

Kott
KVRist
128 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:20 pm

bburtin wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:21 pm
Thanks guys. I downloaded Carla for Windows 64-bit and only see an LV2 version of the plugin. I'm guessing that won't work with Waveform.
yep, I didn't know that there no windows vst version in 2.0
you can try 2.1 alpha version https://github.com/falkTX/Carla/issues/819

eagle-patriot
KVRist
33 posts since 22 Nov, 2014

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:29 am

My first plugin problem:

IK Multimedia ARC 2.5 VST: Waveform 10 Crashes when attempting to close the plugin window. The AU version of the same plugin works fine.
Here's the relevant bit of the Waveform 10 log:

Code: Select all

27 Sep 2019 12:24:24  Attempting to load VST: /Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/VST/ARC 2.vst
27 Sep 2019 12:24:24  Creating VST instance: ARC 2
27 Sep 2019 12:24:24  Initialising VST: ARC 2 (1.0.0.0)
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Closing VST UI: ARC 2
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Crash Location: PluginWindow.cpp:userTriedToCloseWindow:783
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Maintenance took: 1 ms
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  
0   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102542c50 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12713040
1   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019e9071 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 811121
2   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019b5e18 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 601624
3   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102542d29 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12713257
4   libsystem_platform.dylib            0x00007fff77886b5d _sigtramp + 29
5   ???                                 0x0000000000000000 0x0 + 0
6   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9be93f _ZN11AudioEffect10dispatcherEiixPvf + 205
7   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9c0241 _ZN12AudioEffectX10dispatcherEiixPvf + 1071
8   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9be7d8 _ZN11AudioEffect19dispatchEffectClassEP7AEffectiixPvf + 24
9   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102496a0a Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12007946
10  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a4a6e Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12065390
11  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a47f2 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12064754
12  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a425e Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12063326
13  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101bb7b90 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2706320
14  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b86104 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2502916
15  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b85e05 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2502149
16  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b848de Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2496734
17  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b849ff Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2497023
18  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010262d7f7 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13674487
19  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010262d3eb Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13673451
20  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267304f Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13959247
21  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267c1d3 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13996499
22  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267bf2c Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13995820
23  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001026769b5 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13973941
24  AppKit                              0x00007fff48ea801a -[NSWindow(NSEventRouting) _reallySendEvent:isDelayedEvent:] + 1899
25  AppKit                              0x00007fff48ea7667 -[NSWindow(NSEventRouting) sendEvent:] + 478
26  AppKit                              0x00007fff48d46e6b -[NSApplication(NSEvent) sendEvent:] + 331
27  AppKit                              0x00007fff48d355e0 -[NSApplication run] + 755
28  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019e3461 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 787553
29  libdyld.dylib                       0x00007fff7769b3d5 start + 1


27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Binary Images:
0x101923000 Waveform 10 (64-bit)
0x7fff77882000 libsystem_platform.dylib
0x10d9b8000 ARC 2
0x7fff48d22000 AppKit
0x7fff77685000 libdyld.dylib

27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Crash report created: /Users/efn/Library/Caches/Waveform 10 (64-bit)/Waveform 10 Crash Logs/Waveform 10.3.1 Crash Log 2019-09-27(2).txt
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Crashed
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  

27 Sep 2019 12:24:31  Thread 0:
27 Sep 2019 12:24:31    0: PluginWindow.cpp:userTriedToCloseWindow:783

**********************************************************
And the crash log:

Code: Select all

Crash Report
Crashed

0   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102542c50 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12713040
1   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019e9071 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 811121
2   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019b5e18 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 601624
3   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102542d29 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12713257
4   libsystem_platform.dylib            0x00007fff77886b5d _sigtramp + 29
5   ???                                 0x0000000000000000 0x0 + 0
6   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9be93f _ZN11AudioEffect10dispatcherEiixPvf + 205
7   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9c0241 _ZN12AudioEffectX10dispatcherEiixPvf + 1071
8   ARC 2                               0x000000010d9be7d8 _ZN11AudioEffect19dispatchEffectClassEP7AEffectiixPvf + 24
9   Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000102496a0a Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12007946
10  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a4a6e Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12065390
11  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a47f2 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12064754
12  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001024a425e Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 12063326
13  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101bb7b90 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2706320
14  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b86104 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2502916
15  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b85e05 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2502149
16  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b848de Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2496734
17  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x0000000101b849ff Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 2497023
18  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010262d7f7 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13674487
19  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010262d3eb Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13673451
20  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267304f Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13959247
21  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267c1d3 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13996499
22  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x000000010267bf2c Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13995820
23  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001026769b5 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 13973941
24  AppKit                              0x00007fff48ea801a -[NSWindow(NSEventRouting) _reallySendEvent:isDelayedEvent:] + 1899
25  AppKit                              0x00007fff48ea7667 -[NSWindow(NSEventRouting) sendEvent:] + 478
26  AppKit                              0x00007fff48d46e6b -[NSApplication(NSEvent) sendEvent:] + 331
27  AppKit                              0x00007fff48d355e0 -[NSApplication run] + 755
28  Waveform 10 (64-bit)                0x00000001019e3461 Waveform 10 (64-bit) + 787553
29  libdyld.dylib                       0x00007fff7769b3d5 start + 1

Binary Images:
0x101923000 Waveform 10 (64-bit)
0x7fff77882000 libsystem_platform.dylib
0x10d9b8000 ARC 2
0x7fff48d22000 AppKit
0x7fff77685000 libdyld.dylib
I also submitted a bug report to IK, sans the logs, since some illegal characters were rejected by their web form.

Let me know if I can provide any other information to help.
[Waveform 10.3.1 on Mac Mojave 10.14.6]
Art is dangerous. It is one of the attractions: when it ceases to be dangerous, you don't want it. - Duke Ellington

bburtin
KVRist
182 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Mountain View, CA

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:16 pm

I was able to use DDMF Metaplugin to run AIR Strike 2 in Waveform 10 on Windows 10 64-bit. Not ideal, but at least we have options. The Novation Ultranova editor locked up in Metaplugin just like it did when I loaded it directly into Waveform. I fiddled with Carla for like 10-15 minutes and couldn't figure out how to navigate to c:\Program Files\VSTPlugins.

Kott
KVRist
128 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:46 pm

bburtin wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:16 pm
I fiddled with Carla for like 10-15 minutes and couldn't figure out how to navigate to c:\Program Files\VSTPlugins.
You should run Carla.exe and configure it. Settings->Configure Carla->Paths, select VST from format drop-down menu.

Tamere123
KVRer
1 posts since 30 Sep, 2019

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:32 am

Hey guys!

Been using Tracktion for a couple weeks now and I'm having some annoying issues with 3rd party plugins.
When I try putting some automation on a plugin parameter, I can create the curve and everything, but nothing happens to said plugin parmeter.
Also, the volume and pan controls don't work at all on third party plugins.

I just want to create a volume automation, wich should be easy, but I've been at this for hours now and nothing works...

bburtin
KVRist
182 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Mountain View, CA

Re: Waveform Problem Plugins

Post Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:30 pm

This sounds like a separate topic. May be better to start a new thread or contact Tracktion tech support directly?

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