Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Discussion about: tracktion.com
zzz00m
KVRAF
2013 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:28 pm

TSC wrote:Creating a scoring app is a massive undertaking - easy to do badly, very difficult to do well!
Understandably, that seems to be the consensus of most DAW developers. Most serious composers use dedicated scoring software anyway, so having it in a DAW would be of little interest to them.

I will say though, that it would be neat to have a simple notation 'viewer', so that you could see your MIDI data on a traditional staff in a separate window from the piano roll editor. Maybe not for input, or editing, but just to have an overall view of the MIDI tracks being performed during playback. That might give you a better contextual view of the arrangement as you are working.

But of course, exporting the MIDI to a real scoring application would be the objective for serious workflow.
Windows 10; with instruments from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, UVI, Vember Audio, Waves, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

harvon
KVRist
32 posts since 1 Oct, 2019

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:02 pm

I'm even considering a buy of the presonus studio one + notion combo because they would allow me to transfer midi, audio and instrument between them.

However the presonus solution of linking two separate programs is less desirable than an integrated score editor. A score editor plugin is also less desirable than an integrated score editor. A mere score viewer - well no interest there at all. A lyrics track - that would be useful.

spoontechnique
KVRist
156 posts since 7 May, 2018

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:19 pm

A lyrics/notes track would be amazingly helpful. Being able to write notes and have them show in a marker track would be so useful. I've often wished I could have an extra marker track so I could write notes. Obviously you can use the note plugin, but I'd like to be able to see them on a linear format like markers.

ForrestH
KVRist
30 posts since 24 Jan, 2019

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:56 pm

(Or, for that matter, text clips.)

zzz00m
KVRAF
2013 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:16 am

MuseScore 3 (free) can import MIDI and supports lyrics. And you can send the MIDI output externally to Tracktion (or any other host), avoiding the use of the GM soundfont in MuseScore for playback (turn the internal mixer all the way down).

Then by using the MuseScore MIDI I/O feature [Edit > Preferences > I/O], and a MIDI loopback tool such as LoopBe (for a virtual internal MIDI port), send the MIDI output to Tracktion to play your virtual instruments. Just set MuseScore 3 and Tracktion to use the same internal MIDI input/output provided by LoopBe.

This is fairly simple to set up, but doesn't offer transport control sync between apps. No audio, just MIDI. The plus side here is that you can hear your favorite virtual instruments play back the score from MuseScore, with your DAW just providing the synth rack, FX, and mixer.

And you can print your score with lyrics. :D

https://musescore.org/en
https://www.nerds.de/en/loopbe1.html
Windows 10; with instruments from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, UVI, Vember Audio, Waves, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

harvon
KVRist
32 posts since 1 Oct, 2019

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:48 pm

Musescore is not an acceptable solution because it "doesn't offer transport control sync between apps." So an external scorewriter has to have rewire.

But like I already said I prefer notation integrated in tracktion.

fde101
KVRist
157 posts since 16 Mar, 2017

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:46 am

fedexnman wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:07 pm
A lyric track would only be good if it has a bouncy ball that goes word to word .... You know like Karaoke . .. :hihi:
If there are multiple lyric tracks on the score, the color of the ball should be selectable per-track to make it easier to distinguish them while watching. Also, it should be possible to record the lyric tracks to video files.

:roll:

zzz00m
KVRAF
2013 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:13 pm

harvon wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:48 pm
Musescore is not an acceptable solution because it "doesn't offer transport control sync between apps." So an external scorewriter has to have rewire.

But like I already said I prefer notation integrated in tracktion.
Another option is something like Studio One + Notion, or Notion over ReWire with another DAW.

"While Notion exceeds all other notation software with its mix capabilities, you can take compositions to the next level by connecting Notion to a leading DAW through superior realtime audio/MIDI streaming over ReWire. Or create a music production powerhouse by pairing Notion 6 with Studio One 3 (or newer), where you can now send audio, note, track, VST and score data directly between the applications. The workflow between Notion 6 and Studio One is unprecedented, as both applications can run side by side on the same computer or on any computers on the same network."

Also Sibelius over ReWire with another DAW, Cubase Pro with its built-in score editor or Dorico, or Logic Pro X with its built-in notation. I believe Finale is also ReWire capable. Even Reaper or Cakewalk have rudimentary notation editors.

Hopefully the developer will listen.
Windows 10; with instruments from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, UVI, Vember Audio, Waves, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

harvon
KVRist
32 posts since 1 Oct, 2019

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:27 pm

I have looked at Studio One & Notion and I'm a bit suspicious 'cause there is too much discussion on vst plugins that just don't work.

To my best knowledge there is no DAW in existence with two faces: The one face a full audio midi editor and the other a full score editor. Flip a switch and the software changes from the one to the other.

zzz00m
KVRAF
2013 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:20 pm

harvon wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:27 pm

To my best knowledge there is no DAW in existence with two faces: The one face a full audio midi editor and the other a full score editor. Flip a switch and the software changes from the one to the other.
For the sake of discussion, I think you just nailed it. The key phrase being "full score editor".

The market forces at work have probably suggested to the companies that develop these tools that the average user that wants a "full score editor" is probably not the same user that wants a comprehensive audio/MIDI DAW. Check out the VI Control community discussions about notation here > https://vi-control.net/community/forums ... dorico.69/

Hence these are probably two separate universes among the majority of music technology users. I am not against combining the two, but before this idea could become mainstream, I assume there should be a business case for it, no matter how desirable this would be from a purely technical viewpoint.
Windows 10; with instruments from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, UVI, Vember Audio, Waves, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

cjayconrod
KVRist
58 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from St. Louis, MO USA

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:50 pm

Sounds like a feature that would take YEARS to work the bugs out and make truly functional. I personally, don't want it because every notation program I've ever used is rhythmically stiff on MIDI playback. Reaper has the feature, and I've never even opened the score editor window once since its introduction.
Win10 (64-bit) * 2.2Ghz dual-core, 8GB RAM * Presonus AudioBox USB * Waveform 10.2.1/Reaper 5.979* SampleTank 3/Garritan GPO 5 * A LOT of free VST plugs

Kott
KVRist
109 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:05 am

cjayconrod wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:50 pm
Sounds like a feature that would take YEARS to work the bugs out and make truly functional. I personally, don't want it because every notation program I've ever used is rhythmically stiff on MIDI playback. Reaper has the feature, and I've never even opened the score editor window once since its introduction.
Totally agree. Waveform need a lot of polish of present functions rather than rush for not so obviously needed features.

spoontechnique
KVRist
156 posts since 7 May, 2018

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:39 am

A full score editor is a massive undertaking. I've lightly messed with Cubase's, and even for that venerable program with Steinberg resources, it felt less powerful than Sibelius or even Musescore (obviously Steinberg has Dorico to fill that gap). I would much rather have improvements to midi and step clips than effort put into a score editor. I strongly doubt that anyone who needs or prefers a score-based workflow would even consider Waveform when dedicated, popular programs already fill that niche.

That said, I suspect lyric/note tracks with text clips that you can move around and color would be relatively simple to code (could be very wrong) and an surprisingly powerful selling point. I first started thinking about this when I saw Dave Otero's video on recording vocals https://youtu.be/K_FM67AYyp8?t=306. He uses Google Docs with timestamps and matches the clips with the appropriate color. It'd both be a huge feature for producers/engineers (who would love it as a workflow tool) and for composers (who would appreciate the visual aspect of laying out lyrics like any other instrument).

zzz00m
KVRAF
2013 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: Making a case for a score editor add - on for Waveform

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:24 am

spoontechnique wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:39 am
I suspect lyric/note tracks with text clips that you can move around and color would be relatively simple to code (could be very wrong) and an surprisingly powerful selling point.
I can't argue with that suggestion! That could be useful for many.

Expanding on this idea would be to also render a staff notation view of selected MIDI tracks (particularly the melody, and others as needed), including a rendering of the chord track, along with lyrics included in sync from the text clips, essentially forming a "lead sheet" of the song. Not a score editor, but a view that musicians could follow when performing the song, and or recording additional parts.

Additionally, if the song were to be totally audio, and without MIDI tracks, the lead sheet in this model could still display the chord track as a chord chart along with text clips for the lyrics.
Windows 10; with instruments from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, UVI, Vember Audio, Waves, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

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