Tracktion Universe 2020

Discussion about: tracktion.com
harvon
KVRist
72 posts since 1 Oct, 2019

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:36 pm

Good to get some information. The W11 free seems to be much like W10 free.

spoontechnique
KVRist
190 posts since 7 May, 2018

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:30 pm

Any 2 of those features would be great. With the exception of the Airwindows plugins, they all seem insanely useful. Zero regrets about pre-ordering.

GuitarPlayerinNYC
KVRist
63 posts since 23 Dec, 2019

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:05 pm

dRowAudio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:35 pm
Losing half my plugins overnight when I fired up WF 10, and having duplicated plugins, I believe, would fall under "glitchy."
I'm still not quite sure I follow here, your describing two completely opposite problems. First that you've "lost half your plugins" and second that 32-bit plugins do work? How can both of these be true?
First, at no time did I, or anyone from support say there was a 32 bit version of WF 10. This is his exact quote, from an email, when I asked about 32 bit plugins: "W10 will is 64Bit but will run 32 bit plugins. This is only recommended for old plugins where a 64Bit version is not available." This was in response to my query about how/why I had 32 bit Traction plugins appear in my plugin menu. It's possible that he meant with a bridge, but I can only quote, what was stated.
Yes, as I've said this was a mistake, they happen from time to time and I've apologised for it. The correct response is that 32-bit plugins are not supported at all in any version of Waveform 9 or later.
How do you explain this?
Your screenshot doesn't actually show a 32-bit plugin being run...
It just shows that plugin running, presumably you have a 64-bit version of it installed as well?

We do try to find appropriate plugins with almost identical names when adding them to tracks. So if you've added a plugin called "My Plugin" but only a file called "My Plugin (64-bit)" exists, it will load that. We used to do this so you could load projects created with 32-bit plugins in 64-bit version of the app to ease the transition.
We also have logic to load plugins with the same name but a different format (e.g. VST3) if the original can't be found. In case anyone is interested in this logic it's here: Tracktion Engine

The only thing that I can think of that might have happened is that when you moved from W8 or T7 32-bit, there has been a bug which copied the plugins list of the 32-bit plugins and displayed them in the 64-bit version of W10 (although I don't think this is possible as I'm sure over the years someone would have reported this behaviour as it's confusing and unintended).
Then, when you added a 32-bit plugin from the list, it actually loaded the 64-bit version using the logic above.

Believe me, if it was possible to load 32-bit plugins in the 64-bit version of Waveform our lives would be a lot easier. It's just not physically possible as the machine instructions are different. Hence all the bit-bridging companies and bridges used in Reaper/BitWig etc.
They're not opposite problems, they were separate problems. I lost EZ Drumer/keys, Traction Loops, and Collections. Other plugins were intact, like Arturia, Scaler, and Sonivox. If you're in fact connected with Tracktion, you can check for all the details with support. I sent a very long, and very detailed explanation with screenshots.

The duplicated VSTs were from DAW Essentials- both 32 bit, and 64 bit. I don't know if the 32 bit FX worked, as I didn't test it. I just wanted them gone, and they are.

I am running T7, 64 bit as well. In troubleshooting that, I had deleted the T7.Settings file, because T7 wouldn't recognize my midi controller.

As far as the AMG2x86.dll, I downloaded it, planted it in a VST folder, and it works. How or why, I don't know, and I really don't care. I didn't even realize WF existed until about Xmas of last year, when I was searching for a solution to a problem with T7, described above. I saw threads on WF, demoed it, liked it enough to buy it. I speculated with tech support that I had a possible beta version- it's still available to download in my account, but at this juncture, who knows?

Like I said, I'm not so invested in this that I'm going to go nuts over attempting to prove anyone right, or wrong, and I'm certainly not casting aspersions on Tracktion, or its developers. I simply reported, what happened. I wasn't happy spending 8 hours in fixing things, but it is, what it is. Tech support was great, and my case is now closed. Ideally, things will run smoothly, and I look forward to WF11. If the internet drama queens want to go nuts over this, they're welcome to. I have better things to do, so that's all I have to say on this subject. Thanks.

Kott
KVRist
145 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:14 pm

dRowAudio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:49 am
Here's the one-sheet of features we were showing at NAMM.
It's not the complete list, we are also working on plugin sandboxing and there will be other things such as templates, presets etc.
Hi,
You're teasing us. Arpeggiator - is what I looking for at this moment and considering to buy one or wait for W11.

Not so important, but may be interesting. Is sandboxing gonna be opened in tracktion_engine? And what about SOUL?

Peter Widdicombe
KVRist
431 posts since 29 Aug, 2014

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:34 pm

In the offchance that 32-bit bridging might have made an appearance, I tried the alternative way of adding plugins (dragging to the open Waveform window), and they were quickly dismissed as being non-64 bit and failing the compatibility test.

courtjestr
KVRist
164 posts since 25 Aug, 2018

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:29 pm

GuitarPlayerinNYC wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:05 pm
They're not opposite problems, they were separate problems. I lost EZ Drumer/keys, Traction Loops, and Collections. Other plugins were intact, like Arturia, Scaler, and Sonivox. If you're in fact connected with Tracktion, you can check for all the details with support. I sent a very long, and very detailed explanation with screenshots.
There might be a misunderstanding then. Are you saying that your missing plugins were not 32 bit plugins? My assumption was that they disappeared because they were 32 bit plugins. Then you stated that some 32 bit plugins worked for you in Waveform 10. It was assumed that you felt Waveform 10 was glitchy because it dropped your 32 bit plugins, and you felt that it should not have done so. The rest of us stated that was expected behaviour.

You lost Tracktion Loops? That is not even a VST.

dRowAudio is not only connected with Tracktion, he is one of the main developers. He is probably going to know way more about the internal workings of Tracktion, than your support contact.
GuitarPlayerinNYC wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Like I said, I'm not so invested in this that I'm going to go nuts over attempting to prove anyone right, or wrong, and I'm certainly not casting aspersions on Tracktion, or its developers. I simply reported, what happened.
For someone who is not invested in this, you sure are posting a lot about your issues. Some very good advice has been given to help you identify your issues which you have ignored. This is not drama, these are people who have been using Tracktion software for a long time, who went through the period of Waveform dropping support for 32 bit plugins, and who know what they are talking about.

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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
27840 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:26 am

GuitarPlayerinNYC wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:17 am
Are you prepared to say that a 32 bit plugin will never work, without a bridge?
Im sure he is. Its literally impossible. A processor running in 64-bit mode cannot execute 32-bit instructions. It needs to be running in 32-bit mode to be able to do so. If the processor switches to 32-bit mode, it cannot run 64-bit instructions. Switching mode back and forwards is the only way it can run both sets of instructions, but it cannot mix running them in a single process. Also, the 32-bit processes and 64-bit processes are far more isolated from each other than regular processes.
Also, plugins are executed as part of a host; therefore there needs to be a 32-bit host spawned to run a 32-bit plugin. That 'bridge' host has to pass data back and forward to the main host via methods which are not typically part of a DAWs communication with a plugin.
All that stuff is complex. It requires a lot of deliberate and hard effort to write and integrate well.

That's what a bitbridge is.

You're basically saying your petrol car is a hybrid because you can see it has a battery. You're not accepting the fact that there's no drivechain to the wheels from that battery, and insisting that the fact that it was still moving with what you say is an empty tank means it was using the battery. You're challenging the manufacturer to prove that it wasnt using the battery, and not accepting that if its driving, that means the tank cant be empty.

You still insisting its the developer who got it wrong here?
How do you explain this? AGML2.JPG
AGML2x86.JPG
The dll gets rejected from Waveform, and, as you can see in the 2nd screenshot is a 32 bit .dll. Despite that, it works.
Quite simply, the sane and rationale explanation is that that isnt the 32 bit version running. You're admitting that Tracktion has already told you it cant load the 32-bit version, yet you're insisting it has loaded it. It cant. Ergo it hasnt.
I don't expect you to address everything I've posted, but I do want you to answer this question: Are you prepared to say that WF10 will never load a 32 bit plugin? If your answer is "yes," please explain how I have a 32 bit VST running right now.
Well either (1) the developer of the software accidently built in a very complex system for thunking to a 32-bit hosting process and doesnt know it, or (2) your system is somehow magical, or (3) that isnt actually the 32-bit version of that VST.

Which seems likely to you?

Im also curious about the fact that the screengrab you show for the 32-bit version is a direct download for the .dll file. Because that's not how Amplesound seem to distribute this; all Isee on their website is installers that give you the option to install multiple versions at once, where the default behaviour includes installing the 32-bit and 64-bit VST version simultaneously.
Could you let us know where you got this link so we can test that version ourselves?

And, just for the record, on my system, if I let the AGML installer put on both versions, Tracktion rejects the x86 version as invalid, but loads the the x64 version,

Perhaps you could provide your %appdata%/Roaming/Tracktion/Waveform/knownPluginList64.settings file for us to look at; that would help considerably.
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:15 am

I don't want to aggravate this situation any more, GuitarPlayerinNYC is up and running now so perhaps we should all move on and keep the discussion related to Waveform 11.

One final word from me though, I am the lead developer of Waveform and as such I wanted to get to the bottom of this issue for two reasons, hence my posting:
1. If there is a genuine bug here that has led to the confusion and issues you saw, I want to find out exactly what it was so I can fix it so future people don't suffer the same problems.
2. I wanted to make sure that we had an official response in this thread to ensure future readers aren't left confused over the state of 32-bit support

This isn't really the right place to get the bottom of this on here though so back to Waveform 11...

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:20 am

Not so important, but may be interesting. Is sandboxing gonna be opened in tracktion_engine?
Not right now, we have it in one of our private modules at least whilst it's being developed. It might make it in to tracktion_engine but it might not depending on the fit. There's a lot of app-level logic required to manage the process and decide what plugins to run where etc. so it's not exactly a drop-in for the Engine.
And what about SOUL?
SOUL is already largely open source: https://github.com/soul-lang/SOUL
We basically use the SOUL_PatchLoader library. I'm fairly sure there will be a JUCE-based SOUL host (similar to the JUCE Audio Plugin Host) at some point which will be fairly similar to what we're doing.

Does that help?

Kott
KVRist
145 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:16 pm

>>SOUL is already largely open source: https://github.com/soul-lang/SOUL
AFAIK SOUL_PatchLoader.so cannot be compiled from source, it has a lot of closed components. But it should be addressed to SOUL devs.
I've asked because it's recent build doesn't work in WF10 under Linux. So I even unable to see what it looks like in Waveform.

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:49 am

Can I ask what Linux system you're using? It could be that the distributed binaries are not compatible with it...

Kott
KVRist
145 posts since 12 Mar, 2013 from Russia, Vladivostok

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:28 pm

openSUSE Tumbleweed and tested in Ubuntu 18.04.3:
*** ERROR: SOUL patch library failed to load: /home/kv/.config/Tracktion/Waveform/SOUL/SOUL_PatchLoader.so

ldd is fine with that .so (except libcurl version mismatch) and compiled libSOULPatchHostDemo works well

User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
31152 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 am

dRowAudio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:23 pm
I'm not quite sure I follow here. What problems are you describing? High CPU load? Whenever we've benchmarked things like this CPU time is almost exclusively spent in the processing the plugins themselves. There's actually very little we do in-between that takes time.

Perhaps you have a different issue that you're attributing to latency?
Tracktion has always been glitchy (ie. audio clicks and dropouts) for me on Mac. I attributed it in the past to my weak MacMini but now I have a 6 core iMac and it's still the same unless I drop the buffer down to over 512 samples (and this is with a RME Fireface)

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:18 am

What is the CPU meter reading in the top-right hand corner of the window?
Do you get dropouts when not using any plugins? I.e. just when playing back audio files?

If so, this certainly shouldn't be the case and I'd like to investigate more if I can replicate it.

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aMUSEd
KVRAF
31152 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:16 am

dRowAudio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:18 am
What is the CPU meter reading in the top-right hand corner of the window?
Do you get dropouts when not using any plugins? I.e. just when playing back audio files?

If so, this certainly shouldn't be the case and I'd like to investigate more if I can replicate it.
It seems to affect plugins that are more demanding - on my old system that would have meant using over 50% but on my new system the meter is rarely going over 10% but I still hear pops (admittedly not as much and if I increase the buffer to 512 or over they are not as apparent). Example plugins would be Reaktor, Cypher 2, Padshop and Omnisphere. I tried recording an audio stream to capture the pops though to send this to you but it doesn't record them so it seems the sounds are only when I'm playing the plugin but not actually being recorded. I do get some pops even on playing back the file in Waveform but they are in different places each time so obviously not rendered into the file - this seems to be a live playing issue. Also if I open the rendered wav in RX I see no sign of pops and playback is smooth in that.

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