Tracktion Universe 2020

Discussion about: tracktion.com
dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:59 am

Hi everyone, it appears there is a fair bit of confusion over the state of 32-bit plugin support in Waveform.
I can categorically say that the hosting of 32-bit plugins in any version of Waveform since v9 is not supported.
You can not scan, have 32-bit plugins appear in the Plugins settings page list, plugin selector menus or add 32-bit plugins to tracks.

The main source of confusion over this is that when scanning for plugins, if the scanner finds 32-bit dlls, it will report that they appeared to be plugin files but failed to scan correctly. This is because the framework we use (JUCE) doesn't have support for ignoring 32-bit architecture plugins, so it tries to load them and fails, hence the warning message.
In this case, these plugins definitely won't be add to the plugins list or be available to add to tracks.

If someone has had multiple copies of a plugin appear, my best guess is that they have installed the plugin to multiple locations and scanned and added it twice. You can check this by going to the "Plugins" settings page, selecting a plugin, pressing the "Scanning and sorting" button and then "Show folder containing selected plugin".

The only way to run 32-bit plugins in any version of Waveform since Waveform 9 is to use a 3rd party bit-bridging solution such as jBridge. Where possible though I would recommend simply moving to 64-bit variants of plugins.

Apologies about the reply from our customer support who was mistaken about the availability of a 32-bit version of Waveform 10. We don't have 32-bit versions of Waveform 10, nor will there be a 32-bit version of Waveform 11.

I hope this clears up any confusion.
Dave

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exponent1
KVRist
358 posts since 10 Nov, 2018 from India

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:01 am

So, I had pre-ordered W11 Pro upgrade the day it was announced. I mailed support about the feature list to get the full list of features but they instead just pointed me to videos that have already been shared and we've all watched them.

Is it possible to just share the concrete new feature list so that buyers or potential buyers don't have a doubt over what they're buying or have ordered? Also, when are the betas going to be available?

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Stuttaton
KVRist
431 posts since 24 Jan, 2004 from Sweden

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:21 am

I will definitely not decide on an upgrade before I get the full new features / improvements list.

magicmusic
KVRian
1139 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:45 am

I buy only when i see a demo/beta to see if the feauture work good. the way waveform now go with the free version is i think good. I have in the past use studio one free and after longer use i like it more and more and i see when a update happen and what it can do more. so i decide that i want the pro version when it was on sale for 199$. currently i use mostly studio one now, but i am always open for new. but more as 199$ i want not spend for a DAW that need pay every year for update. studio one update alot for no price and there come only every 2-3 years a new payable version
For Bug report Purpose that developer see which system i use; win 10 64 1809 intel i5 8600K (6*3.6 GHZ) 16 GB Ram

jabe
KVRAF
1985 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:55 am

I would have bought it at some point, so I took advantage of the offer.
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10, 32&64, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:49 am

Here's the one-sheet of features we were showing at NAMM.
It's not the complete list, we are also working on plugin sandboxing and there will be other things such as templates, presets etc.

As this is still in development we'll be releasing more details as we have them.
Tracktion Waveform Pro v11 feature overview.jpg
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exponent1
KVRist
358 posts since 10 Nov, 2018 from India

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:02 am

Thanks a lot Dave! Which of these new features are Pro only features?

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:21 am

These are all Waveform 11 Pro only.

Waveform 11 Free won't have any of the W11 Pro features or the newer features added in W10 or W9 (like Groove Dr. Multi-Sampler, Drum Sampler, Subtractive, Edit Groups, Macros, Modifiers, Chord Track, Faceplates, Master Mix etc).
It does however include 4OSC and Micro Drum Sampler and is unlimited (no track count or plugin restrictions).
Again, more info to follow on this as we create it.

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exponent1
KVRist
358 posts since 10 Nov, 2018 from India

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:32 am

dRowAudio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:21 am
These are all Waveform 11 Pro only.

Waveform 11 Free won't have any of the W11 Pro features or the newer features added in W10 or W9 (like Groove Dr. Multi-Sampler, Drum Sampler, Subtractive, Edit Groups, Macros, Modifiers, Chord Track, Faceplates, Master Mix etc).
It does however include 4OSC and Micro Drum Sampler and is unlimited (no track count or plugin restrictions).
Again, more info to follow on this as we create it.
Oh! Thanks a lot. Being a Waveform 10 Pro user, I can't imagine my workflow without the features you mentioned, so the discounted pre-order was a wise decision for me :D Thanks again, really.

GuitarPlayerinNYC
KVRist
63 posts since 23 Dec, 2019

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:17 am

dRowAudio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:59 am
Hi everyone, it appears there is a fair bit of confusion over the state of 32-bit plugin support in Waveform.
I can categorically say that the hosting of 32-bit plugins in any version of Waveform since v9 is not supported.
You can not scan, have 32-bit plugins appear in the Plugins settings page list, plugin selector menus or add 32-bit plugins to tracks.

The main source of confusion over this is that when scanning for plugins, if the scanner finds 32-bit dlls, it will report that they appeared to be plugin files but failed to scan correctly. This is because the framework we use (JUCE) doesn't have support for ignoring 32-bit architecture plugins, so it tries to load them and fails, hence the warning message.
In this case, these plugins definitely won't be add to the plugins list or be available to add to tracks.

If someone has had multiple copies of a plugin appear, my best guess is that they have installed the plugin to multiple locations and scanned and added it twice. You can check this by going to the "Plugins" settings page, selecting a plugin, pressing the "Scanning and sorting" button and then "Show folder containing selected plugin".

The only way to run 32-bit plugins in any version of Waveform since Waveform 9 is to use a 3rd party bit-bridging solution such as jBridge. Where possible though I would recommend simply moving to 64-bit variants of plugins.

Apologies about the reply from our customer support who was mistaken about the availability of a 32-bit version of Waveform 10. We don't have 32-bit versions of Waveform 10, nor will there be a 32-bit version of Waveform 11.

I hope this clears up any confusion.
Dave
Hi Dave- I posted about the duplicate plugins. I'm not going to address everything you've said, because I'm not that invested. I just mentioned that WF10 seemed "glitchy." Losing half my plugins overnight when I fired up WF 10, and having duplicated plugins, I believe, would fall under "glitchy."

First, at no time did I, or anyone from support say there was a 32 bit version of WF 10. This is his exact quote, from an email, when I asked about 32 bit plugins: "W10 will is 64Bit but will run 32 bit plugins. This is only recommended for old plugins where a 64Bit version is not available." This was in response to my query about how/why I had 32 bit Traction plugins appear in my plugin menu. It's possible that he meant with a bridge, but I can only quote, what was stated.

There's zero doubt in my mind the 32 bit Tracktion plugins were loaded along side the 64 bit. In the plugin menu, they appeared as "TAuto Filter followed by #TAutoFilter (64)- for a total of 32 plugins. Every other plugin didn't have (64) following it. After removing those .dlls without the (64) from within the Settings>Plugin tab, and manually deleting the 32 bit plugins from the 32 bit folder, the duplicates disappeared. OK, you can say barring evidence, I imagined it, or I'm making, it up. I didn't think to take a screenshot in an effort to troll this community. It never happened. Fair enough, since you only have my words here.

Are you prepared to say that a 32 bit plugin will never work, without a bridge? How do you explain this?
AGML2.JPG
AGML2x86.JPG
The dll gets rejected from Waveform, and, as you can see in the 2nd screenshot is a 32 bit .dll. Despite that, it works.

It wasn't, and isn't, my intent to disparage Traction as a company, or disseminate misinformation. I wouldn't have paid for the program, if I thought WF was garbage. I simply relayed what happened to me. It seems to have gotten the drama queens all up in arms. So I hope I've cleared up any misconceptions. I'll reiterate: at no point did anyone from support say there was a 32 bit version of WF, nor was I ever encouraged to use 32 bit plugins. I never suggested that anyone should use 32 bit plugins; I simply stated that it did.

How/why the 32 bit Tracktion plugins installed will probably always remain a mystery, especially since I was using WF10 in demo mode for a month, and these problems cropped up literally the day after I paid for, and authorized the program. The support guy has been great, and we've been communicating the last 3 days, and everything seems fine now.

I sent my problems to support both to ensure I won't run into this again (I had solved all the problems on my own; I just wanted verification that I did everything correctly), and, if there's some kind previously unknown glitch, it could be patched.

I don't expect you to address everything I've posted, but I do want you to answer this question: Are you prepared to say that WF10 will never load a 32 bit plugin? If your answer is "yes," please explain how I have a 32 bit VST running right now.

Thanks.
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exponent1
KVRist
358 posts since 10 Nov, 2018 from India

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 am

Okay, do something GuitarPlayerinNYC:

Open Waveform> Go to Settings> Click on Plugins> Search for 'AGML2'. You should see AGML2 listed in your results. Please share the screenshot of the query results.

Next, right click on the 'AGML2' rows from the search results and click on 'Show folder containing plugin'. In the folder that opens, locate AGML2 and ensure that you only see the file "AGML2x86.dll" (32-bit) and not "AGML2.dll" (64-bit) as well. Please share the screenshot of that list which shows AGML2.

If you see "AGML2.dll" as well, it means you also have the 64-bit plugin. So, close Waveform, delete that file(or move it to some other location, say your desktop) and then try to open the AGML2 again in Waveform. If the plugin still works, try searching in your File Browser for "AGML2.dll" and move them to a location which is not specified in Waveform.

If even then AGML2 loads up in Waveform 10, then you're correct that 32-bit plugins work in Waveform somehow. Otherwise, it will be proven that the plugin you were seeing inside of waveform was the 64-bit version and 32-bit plugin versions just don't work without a bridge.
Last edited by exponent1 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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aMUSEd
KVRAF
31152 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:55 am

Would be better to see improvements in the audio engine efficiency when using low latency instruments

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:23 pm

I'm not quite sure I follow here. What problems are you describing? High CPU load? Whenever we've benchmarked things like this CPU time is almost exclusively spent in the processing the plugins themselves. There's actually very little we do in-between that takes time.

Perhaps you have a different issue that you're attributing to latency?

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:35 pm

Losing half my plugins overnight when I fired up WF 10, and having duplicated plugins, I believe, would fall under "glitchy."
I'm still not quite sure I follow here, your describing two completely opposite problems. First that you've "lost half your plugins" and second that 32-bit plugins do work? How can both of these be true?
First, at no time did I, or anyone from support say there was a 32 bit version of WF 10. This is his exact quote, from an email, when I asked about 32 bit plugins: "W10 will is 64Bit but will run 32 bit plugins. This is only recommended for old plugins where a 64Bit version is not available." This was in response to my query about how/why I had 32 bit Traction plugins appear in my plugin menu. It's possible that he meant with a bridge, but I can only quote, what was stated.
Yes, as I've said this was a mistake, they happen from time to time and I've apologised for it. The correct response is that 32-bit plugins are not supported at all in any version of Waveform 9 or later.
How do you explain this?
Your screenshot doesn't actually show a 32-bit plugin being run...
It just shows that plugin running, presumably you have a 64-bit version of it installed as well?

We do try to find appropriate plugins with almost identical names when adding them to tracks. So if you've added a plugin called "My Plugin" but only a file called "My Plugin (64-bit)" exists, it will load that. We used to do this so you could load projects created with 32-bit plugins in 64-bit version of the app to ease the transition.
We also have logic to load plugins with the same name but a different format (e.g. VST3) if the original can't be found. In case anyone is interested in this logic it's here: Tracktion Engine

The only thing that I can think of that might have happened is that when you moved from W8 or T7 32-bit, there has been a bug which copied the plugins list of the 32-bit plugins and displayed them in the 64-bit version of W10 (although I don't think this is possible as I'm sure over the years someone would have reported this behaviour as it's confusing and unintended).
Then, when you added a 32-bit plugin from the list, it actually loaded the 64-bit version using the logic above.

Believe me, if it was possible to load 32-bit plugins in the 64-bit version of Waveform our lives would be a lot easier. It's just not physically possible as the machine instructions are different. Hence all the bit-bridging companies and bridges used in Reaper/BitWig etc.

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1539 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Re: Tracktion Universe 2020

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:44 pm

Oh, one other thing. The name we show in the interface (in the plugin window and in the mixer area) doesn't come from the plugin file directly. It's something we ask the plugin for so you can't base what's been loaded on the name.
E.g. loading "My Plugin (64-bit).dll" could well result in "My Plugin" being shown for the plugin (or something completely different for that matter).

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