Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Official support for: bitwig.com
Matt Riley
KVRist
33 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Post Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:00 am

u-u-u wrote:
HamHat wrote:
Matt Riley wrote:I would love to be able to do this in Bitwig:
1. Select midi notes
2. Go to the velocity editor
3. Hold down Command and click/drag and crescendo with only the selected notes being affected. In Ableton, a dotted line shows up as I drag.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJa ... sp=sharing
Going to have to second this, I use the line tool so much in midi data for smooth crescendos.
It takes some more time than this line but you can achieve pretty decent crescendi with this:
Start with 2 notes with different velocities. Then make clever use of the histogram for velocity (the Mean and Spread parameters are your friends) and duplicate the notes. For turning it into a decreshendo, use the 'reverse pattern' function. Of course it's a bit more tricky for parts where you already have the notes and want to apply a crescendo to them.
This takes A LOT more time than the line function in Ableton and it’s exactly what I DON’T want in a DAW - having to be clever with histograms, mess with “Mean” and “Spread” parameters, duplicate notes (what?!) just to do something that Ableton can do with a click and a drag. Also the above method doesn’t address what I’m trying to do. I’d like to be able to select specific notes and have the crescendo only affect those selected notes. Check out this video.
https://youtu.be/LeGp6WmI1vs

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irre
KVRAF
4389 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:12 am

Matt Riley wrote:I would love to be able to do this in Bitwig:
1. Select midi notes
2. Go to the velocity editor
3. Hold down Command and click/drag and crescendo with only the selected notes being affected. In Ableton, a dotted line shows up as I drag.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJa ... sp=sharing
better write to support than and file a request. This thread might not be monitored.

cheers

User avatar
HamHat
KVRist
301 posts since 28 May, 2013 from Utah

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

u-u-u wrote:
HamHat wrote:
Matt Riley wrote:I would love to be able to do this in Bitwig:
1. Select midi notes
2. Go to the velocity editor
3. Hold down Command and click/drag and crescendo with only the selected notes being affected. In Ableton, a dotted line shows up as I drag.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJa ... sp=sharing
Going to have to second this, I use the line tool so much in midi data for smooth crescendos.
It takes some more time than this line but you can achieve pretty decent crescendi with this:
Start with 2 notes with different velocities. Then make clever use of the histogram for velocity (the Mean and Spread parameters are your friends) and duplicate the notes. For turning it into a decreshendo, use the 'reverse pattern' function. Of course it's a bit more tricky for parts where you already have the notes and want to apply a crescendo to them.
1 Crash'n'Do short.PNG
2 Hist O'Gram.png
3 Crash'n'Do long.PNG
Interesting I will have to give it a go see if I can figure it out.

Matt Riley
KVRist
33 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:27 am

I sent the feature request to support.

User avatar
u-u-u
KVRian
931 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:07 am

Matt Riley wrote:
u-u-u wrote:
HamHat wrote:
Matt Riley wrote:I would love to be able to do this in Bitwig:
1. Select midi notes
2. Go to the velocity editor
3. Hold down Command and click/drag and crescendo with only the selected notes being affected. In Ableton, a dotted line shows up as I drag.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJa ... sp=sharing
Going to have to second this, I use the line tool so much in midi data for smooth crescendos.
It takes some more time than this line but you can achieve pretty decent crescendi with this:
Start with 2 notes with different velocities. Then make clever use of the histogram for velocity (the Mean and Spread parameters are your friends) and duplicate the notes. For turning it into a decreshendo, use the 'reverse pattern' function. Of course it's a bit more tricky for parts where you already have the notes and want to apply a crescendo to them.
This takes A LOT more time than the line function in Ableton and it’s exactly what I DON’T want in a DAW - having to be clever with histograms, mess with “Mean” and “Spread” parameters, duplicate notes (what?!) just to do something that Ableton can do with a click and a drag. Also the above method doesn’t address what I’m trying to do. I’d like to be able to select specific notes and have the crescendo only affect those selected notes. Check out this video.
https://youtu.be/LeGp6WmI1vs
I know my method is not the same and doesn't cover all aspects of the line tool. Also would like to have something like the line tool option in BwS. But I think there might be some improvement capabilities with this tool. What if I want a more exponential curve? - just as an idea ;)

All in all I would say it makes much sense to get used to histograms because they're such timesavers. Try selecting multiple automation points and edit their values with a histogram. For these kind of things histograms are so ingenious!!! Really, it's worth it and when you get used to it once you'll find that it is an very intuitive tool also for other tasks. :tu:

sacer
KVRist
499 posts since 8 Jan, 2012 from frankfurt, Germany

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:26 am

I boaught Bitwig one week ago, and still need time to become familiar, there are many things like the big automation view, 4synth morph, fix macros on a vst, etc that I realy like. But I'll keep Ableton as my main DAW, it works excelent with my APC40+APC20, Push and touchable. In Bitwig I have problems to use APC20 + APC40 simultaniously on 16 tracks. Also there are no midi standard controller scripts for my BCR2000, because I don't want their template, I have programed my own template for my two bcr2000 controller, because i wan't to map them to synths and effects and don't need them as DAW controller, so I have to select them as livid controller to have access on my midi values, but there is no midi out, which shows me the current position.
In Bitwig I have some other problems like that I am playing effect VST with my midikeyboard, allthough I only want to play the instrument (synth) VST.
I used Ableton last 9 years as one and only DAW, and will now start more projects in Bitwig to think different and get other results. There is some hope with the open controller script, but right now i am not happy, if I compare midi mapping and controllers like push and Touchable.

Matt Riley
KVRist
33 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:39 am

u-u-u wrote:
Matt Riley wrote:
u-u-u wrote:
HamHat wrote:
Matt Riley wrote:I would love to be able to do this in Bitwig:
1. Select midi notes
2. Go to the velocity editor
3. Hold down Command and click/drag and crescendo with only the selected notes being affected. In Ableton, a dotted line shows up as I drag.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJa ... sp=sharing
Going to have to second this, I use the line tool so much in midi data for smooth crescendos.
It takes some more time than this line but you can achieve pretty decent crescendi with this:
Start with 2 notes with different velocities. Then make clever use of the histogram for velocity (the Mean and Spread parameters are your friends) and duplicate the notes. For turning it into a decreshendo, use the 'reverse pattern' function. Of course it's a bit more tricky for parts where you already have the notes and want to apply a crescendo to them.
This takes A LOT more time than the line function in Ableton and it’s exactly what I DON’T want in a DAW - having to be clever with histograms, mess with “Mean” and “Spread” parameters, duplicate notes (what?!) just to do something that Ableton can do with a click and a drag. Also the above method doesn’t address what I’m trying to do. I’d like to be able to select specific notes and have the crescendo only affect those selected notes. Check out this video.
https://youtu.be/LeGp6WmI1vs
I know my method is not the same and doesn't cover all aspects of the line tool. Also would like to have something like the line tool option in BwS. But I think there might be some improvement capabilities with this tool. What if I want a more exponential curve? - just as an idea ;)

All in all I would say it makes much sense to get used to histograms because they're such timesavers. Try selecting multiple automation points and edit their values with a histogram. For these kind of things histograms are so ingenious!!! Really, it's worth it and when you get used to it once you'll find that it is an very intuitive tool also for other tasks. :tu:

I love the idea of an exponential curve with the line tool! I haven't needed them up to this point but I guess I'm open to histograms.

I'm ALL for fast workflow. I hate mousing around when a keystroke could do the trick, wading through menus, having to select different tools for different things when holding a key modifier while dragging could do the same thing, etc. I use a program called QuicKeys for some of this but doing it in the DAW is always preferred. For instance, I love that Bitwig has "Commander" but I wish I could customize the keystrokes. Logic does this really well. I also wish Bitwig had "Key Map Mode" like Ableton. These things put less strain on the user to have to adapt to the DAW but rather allows for the DAW to learn the user's workflow. So workflow is everything for me. It allows me to focus on creativity and making music. I'm hopeful concerning Bitwig 1.2. We'll see.

vanhaze
KVRist
245 posts since 23 Oct, 2004

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:38 am

Bitwig Devs should take a look at Reaper's awesome Actions, Custom Actions and custom keyboard mappings for everything.
This goes so deep, it's just insane, but the availability of all this can give you an enormous speedbump workflow wise.
One thing i really hated about Ableton Live was it's minimalistic editing features in Arrange window.
Bitwig doesn't do any much better ...

One very simple example:

In Reaper, i can double click a clip, automatically it plays and set's the loop brace at both sides of this clip, so it becomes looped.
In Reaper, you DON'T have tools that you must choose with different keycommands, all the "editing tools" are integrated in where you set your mouse pointer on a clip or what editing commands you have assigned to different mouse actions, like double click.

It's just awesome, speedy editing 2.0

But no offense, i dished Live already for bitwig, bitwig's stretch engine is superior sounding :D
Rob van Hees

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1952 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:53 am

I've done a lot of demoing of Bitwig this last week. With the u-he promotion i consider this the best time to buy it. I've tried not to focus on what it can't do but on what it offers me in improvements over Live.

Most notably this is in the automation department, although there's a few other things I liked, being able to run one instrument into another all on one channel is handy, bounce in place is definitely something I'd like, sandboxed plugins is probably a good thing and mixed 32/64bit makes it fairly future-proof. I like the sampler which at least isn't a premium extra like Live's. While I like not needing to change tools in Live, I think its quite well implemented in Bitwig. And finally, the GUI is so much better.

On the downside, the stretching just isn't that decent or versatile enough for my uses. I can't adjust the pitch of raw audio unless its run through a stretch algorithm or loaded into a sampler. I can't select several tracks and adjust the volume of them simultaneously and proportionally. No FXB loading. I can't get my Akai MPK225 working with it entirely perfectly. Assigning plugin parameters to hardware controls is a bit more long-winded than with Live. The big one for me though is the limited undo functionality and it not logging plugin adjustments.

v1.2 looks like it will bring some improvements to the table, but its all a bit of a mystery, group tracks we know but what about the other things I've mentioned? I guess i have to decide now whether to take a chance while this promo is on or wait until next time I can get it cheap. Or more realistically, wait till Bitwig 2 and Ableton 10 before deciding whether to switch.

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u-u-u
KVRian
931 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:19 pm

mutantdog wrote:I can't select several tracks and adjust the volume of them simultaneously and proportionally.
Select multiple tracks and then change the volume value in the inspector.

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1952 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:44 pm

Nice. Well that's one thing to scratch off my list. Any ideas if there is a way to change the pitch of raw audio without stretching it? I use this kind of thing in Ableton as a way to make complex basslines out of one-shot samples and resampled synths. I don't care if pitching it up makes the sound shorter, the point is that the sound isn't changed. Loading it into a sampler is no good since I like to see the waveforms on screen.

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u-u-u
KVRian
931 posts since 31 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:43 am

mutantdog wrote:Nice. Well that's one thing to scratch off my list. Any ideas if there is a way to change the pitch of raw audio without stretching it? I use this kind of thing in Ableton as a way to make complex basslines out of one-shot samples and resampled synths. I don't care if pitching it up makes the sound shorter, the point is that the sound isn't changed. Loading it into a sampler is no good since I like to see the waveforms on screen.
Simple pitch changing of raw audio isn't possible ATM. You can use 'Repitch' mode and use the stretch markers to affect the pitch of the sample but then you haven't good control over the pitch value. I remember that I read a developer statement some time ago where he said that they're going to implement pitch for raw samples in the future (didn't say when exactly).
for now I would use the sampler: drag raw sample in, record notes with the desired pitch values, bounce in place and cut that up. Or just program in the notes without bouncing. There are dis-/advantages in both use cases (free sample editing when bounced vs. envelopes/micro-pitch expressions when using notes).
EDIT: and I forgot - of course in BwS it's possible to use a sampler and only bounce the sections in arrangement where further editing is needed ;)

richielg
KVRist
40 posts since 24 Jun, 2012 from Leeds

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:00 am

Hi Guys

I been using Bitwig for probably coming up to 3 months. I used Ableton for nearly 5 years before that. I cant justify going back to Ableton because of how slow and unstable it is in comparison Bitwig.

I use a top of the line macbook pro with latest Yosemite, Ableton and Bitwig. I produce a lot of techno so I really push what you can do with some pretty powerful and complex vst effects and synths etc.

Ableton would consistently crash near the end of a project doing a final arrangement and having everything in the mix. It would also crash on load many times as a result of having a very wide range of different vst's in the project. When in the final stages of a project in Ableton it would run extremelly slow - simple things like rearranging tracks, copying and deleting stuff, chopping and changing the arrangement it becomes very clunky. Using Max is basically useless coz it crunches the CPU. I made a ton of cool stuff I cant use in a meaningful way.

Using BITWIG in this way with tons of cool vsts lots of sounds being pushed out to effects and making interesting techno music basically it DOESNT SLOW DOWN AT ALL!!! The whole thing is smooth - chopping and changing stuff and just navigating around a project. It never crashes on load due to the innovative plug in sandboxing system and is generally much quicker at loading a large project. I contstantly leave a project open on my mac and just come back to is and everything works.

I went to work on Ableton the other day as a change and I thought I just cant justify it. On version 1 of Bitwig they have made a more stable, more powerful and faster piece of software. Granted it still has bugs but none of them are significant enough to outweigh the huge enhancements of speed and work flow that Bitwig delivers. It is extremelly impressive and im going to stick with it for a long time. These developers know their shit.

Thats all.

richielg
KVRist
40 posts since 24 Jun, 2012 from Leeds

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:02 am

Also being able to open multiple projects and copy and paste between them is a great feature!

Bobby L'Avenir
KVRist
344 posts since 2 Jun, 2015

Re: Bitwig vs Ableton and other DAWs. User thoughts please!

Post Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:59 pm

Hi guys, I just got Bitwig after testing it out the entire weekend. I'm hoping to leave Cubase behind for Bitwig but the transition will be tougher than necessary because of a few workflow changes that I thought Bitwig would've added by now since my last demo when it was released a year ago. Dom I hope you read this mate, you'll get much, much more people like me switching over from Cubase for production work if you add the following, and this is just what struck me after 2/3 days using it.

1, Mouse Wheel support of mixer and device knobs

2, really need a key tracking lock in the Bitwig sampler for dropping in new samples whilst a clip is playing. every time a new sample is dropped in key tracking turns of and ruins the playback of the clip

3, Fix HAlion 5, please, please, please, fix Halion 5, pretty please

4, add a playhead to the sample window in the Bitwig sampler, it's way too hard to do tight edits and another reason why you need to fix Halion 5 to work without crashing

5, fade in and out handles on all audio clips, i thought you would've added this by now, really needed

6, Envelope shapes for automation, it takes way too long to do what i can do in seconds with Cubase using the envelope shapes to automate anything i want. Bitwig forces you to draw it all out and waste time, the function where you hold alt (on a PC) to make cuvres is ok, but not good enough. We really need shapes guys

7, right click tool bar, i'm already getting frustrated having to scroll to the header or press numbers on my keyboard which means taking my hands away from my synth. Why can't we have the tools at the top of the existing box that shows up after a right mouse click? It's only tiny boxes so it can't be much to add? Ableton users won't appreciate this but trust me, Cubase users will. Also please add a magnifier for zooming, glue tool for consolidation and of course automation shapes. Even Melodyne Editor has a right click tool bar.

8, 3rd party plugins need to show up on screen where you left them last, this is driving me nuts already

9, something like the Cubase quick link to select a number of tracks to assign there outputs to a group buss. At the moment you have to do each track one by one. Just adding a function to allow us to hold down alt or ctrl whilst selecting a number of tracks to route would be ok, this is how it was in Cubase 5 & 6 before they added quick link

10, proper cross fading functions, every serious daw needs proper cross fade functions



Other features that would be really nice to see but i can put up with for now are; (Again keep in mind i've been using Bitwig for 2/3 days now)

- Track pics or Icons would be nice

- Proper Group tracks with their own icon

- with the routing engine create a control room mixer to set up cue mixes and monitor control with midi so you can assign controllers to switch monitors

- option to apply quantize in realtime as you change the percentage value

- ability to quantize by pressing Q whilst having the clip selected or the midi clip window open instead of having to select all the notes. (global quantize on recorded clips is not an alternative)

- Crop sample function like in Ableton, midi version would be cool too, time saver

- when selecting the far end of any event, the cursor needs to change (like in Cubase) so you can shorten the clip. You shouldn't have to zoom out to select the end of the event to resize it

- resizable mixer would be nice

- faders should get the same colour as the channel header or put a colour strip below the fader too


I hope I'm not coming off as negative because i purchased Bitwig for a good reason, it has major league potential imo. I'm really hoping the Bitwig team realize they've already got Ableton beat, it's time to start adding the features to get the linear daw users to switch and never go back. For now i'll still be using Cubase for some tasks until Bitwig fulfills it's pontential, once that happens, bye Steinberg.
Last edited by Bobby L'Avenir on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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