MPE with Hardware Synths

[BobDog]

https://code.google.com/archive/p/pizmidi/downloads
Not sure if these would still work on recent OSX, but I use them a lot. There is a midi monitor in the collection but any Midi plugin should do that has neutral "through" settings.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks that worked a treat, even with current OS X

Hi,

I cannot get these plugins to be set as MPE, how did you manage it?

Cheers

Andy

[BobDog]

https://code.google.com/archive/p/pizmidi/downloads
Not sure if these would still work on recent OSX, but I use them a lot. There is a midi monitor in the collection but any Midi plugin should do that has neutral "through" settings.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks that worked a treat, even with current OS X

Hi,

I cannot get these plugins to be set as MPE, how did you manage it?

Cheers

Andy

It seems that after using force to MPE the MPE settings box doesn't appear unless I switch from session to clip to session view!

[BobDog]

Okay, my first findings:

If I use the Roli Rise script with my Roli Block and the midi input is therefore set to MPE in the script, I also need to enable "Use MPE" for the instrument (or the Midi Monitor) on the track.
If I instead use my own generic script which doesn't set the input to MPE but simply is sending everything that comes in to BWS 2.4, I do not need to set the instrument in the track to "Use MPE", nor convert Pitchbend to expression and it works as expected (minus the convenient WYSIWYG Pitch editing).
That is actually what I thought should be the case now with 2.4, since MPE in it's basic form is just standard Midi with channels.

Now more related to this thread:
If I use above generic script and put a Hardware Instrument device on a track, send the Midi to a virtual "Loop Midi" port, set it to "Preserve" the Midi channel and then on another track receive that Midi through Loop Midi with another generic script set to the same Loop Midi port (used as a virtual Midi cable), I can play polyphonic MPE through that chain as expected. This would be exactly the same with an external MPE-enabled synth which I do not have.
This again is what I would have expected and the Hardware Instrument works correctly in that scenario.

What doesn't work is, if I use the Roli Rise script with the Block and send it's input to a track with the HW Instrument device on it. In that case, the MPE data isn't translated back to Midi for the output.
BUT.
By accident I found a funny workaround/solution:
As I wrote above, I needed to set my Midi Monitor (I use http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html and scroll to the bottom) to "Use MPE". Doing that, it sees all the Midi data normally. And since a Midi Monitor is sending out what it gets, it sends out the converted Midi to it's output!
So with the Midi Monitor in front of the HW Instrument device and set to "Use MPE" the whole thing works and we can use the Bitwig pitch editing like expected, since the track records the Midi before it goes through the devices (and instead of the monitor, any Midi plugin should work that does not change the data received).

So, what's needed to make even this workaround unnecessary is a "Use MPE" setting for the HW Instrument device and all other such devices that send out Midi, like somebody already said above.

Recording the data also seemed to work correctly.

This is after texting the Block for about an hour, more thorough testing will come, but for now, I seem to be able to use everything as I expected to.

I hope this helps,

Cheers,

Tom

Hi Tom,

What I have noticed with this though is that the channel info is being lost. Somewhere channels are being mapped. So if I play single notes channel 2 is always used, if I play multiple notes it will step up though the channels 2,3,4,5 etc.

Have you noticed this?

Cheers

Andy

[BobDog]

Actually I just checked with Omnisphere and the channels are not preserved there in MPE mode either, I thought this had been fixed before or am I imagining things?

[BobDog]

Changed the linnstrument to use your generic keys script, set it to omni, loaded omnisphere and channel info is retained, everything works perfectly.

So it is the MPE side that is remapping the channels, I thought they fixed this in the previous beta. Unfortunately mine has been overwritten!

[pdxindy]

Hi Tom,

What I have noticed with this though is that the channel info is being lost. Somewhere channels are being mapped. So if I play single notes channel 2 is always used, if I play multiple notes it will step up though the channels 2,3,4,5 etc.

Have you noticed this?

Cheers

Andy

Which controller are you using?

[pdxindy]

Changed the linnstrument to use your generic keys script, set it to omni, loaded omnisphere and channel info is retained, everything works perfectly.

So it is the MPE side that is remapping the channels, I thought they fixed this in the previous beta. Unfortunately mine has been overwritten!

What do you mean remapping the channels?

Using my Linnstrument, in MPE mode, each new note (including not overlapping ones) is on a different midi channel and recorded as such in Bitwig. This is in Beta 3...

[ThomasHelzle]

Hi Tom,

What I have noticed with this though is that the channel info is being lost. Somewhere channels are being mapped. So if I play single notes channel 2 is always used, if I play multiple notes it will step up though the channels 2,3,4,5 etc.

Have you noticed this?

Cheers

Andy

Weird. I didn't notice it before, but you are right, they somehow change the channels.
The Seaboard Block sends each key on a different channel, even if played separately, but the "Force MPE" setting is keeping everything on channel 2 until there are more notes than one.
I first thought it's maybe the script with

Code: Select all

noteInput.setUseExpressiveMidi(true, 0, 48);

set, but that's not the case. It really is the "Use/Force MPE" setting.
This is partly good news, since that means that the Midi is recorded correctly on the track and only later on is getting mangled.
Not sure if this is a remnant of the old system where there was only one Midi channel - maybe they re-invented the channels on the fly back then with their own voice distribution system?

Seems that building in Midi channels will be a much longer road than expected... One day we may even be able to export it...

Cheers,

Tom

[BobDog]

I'm pretty sure it was working fine in the last beta, I tested it.

One of the things I do is set up say omnisphere as 8 mono synths, then set the linnstrument to channel per row. Then you can do hammer ons pulloffs on each row as long as the channel is maintained. This was working before as I tested it, now it isn't.

Maybe I didn't test it with MPE turned on though but I am pretty sure I did.

[ThomasHelzle]

Hm - is that maybe their solution to the "same note played several times overlapping" issue?
If the MPE controller isn't handling that scenario itself, they would be forced to put theese notes on separate channels.
But this should only be invoked if absolutely needed.

I wrote to support and asked what this is about...

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

Weird. I didn't notice it before, but you are right, they somehow change the channels.
The Seaboard Block sends each key on a different channel, even if played separately, but the "Force MPE" setting is keeping everything on channel 2 until there are more notes than one.
I first thought it's maybe the script with

Code: Select all

noteInput.setUseExpressiveMidi(true, 0, 48);

set, but that's not the case. It really is the "Use/Force MPE" setting.

Force MPE setting is working as expected for me... each new note (non overlapping notes) is on a different midi channel.

I'm on a Mac... perhaps there is a Windows bug?

[ThomasHelzle]

Force MPE setting is working as expected for me... each new note (non overlapping notes) is on a different midi channel.

I'm on a Mac... perhaps there is a Windows bug?

Do you try it with a Midi monitor with and without "Force MPE" active?
It's not in the recorded notes, those are fine, it's in the Midi stream in/after a device set to "Use/Force MPE".

Cheers,

Tom

[Tj Shredder]

Is there a clear explanation at all why this “force MPE” is there at all? I only see its necessary to make it work, but I have no idea why it doesn’t work if its not set. If its not set I don’t get any PB except for channel 1, but I don’t know why.
Bitwig is the only DAW which has to do something to make it work. Ardour for example is completely unaware of MPE, and it just works without a single problem...
Bitwig has created a problem which is now solved (at least most of it), but why create a problem in the first place?
I just don’t know why and would like to know what would go wrong if it would be as simple as in Ardour...

[ThomasHelzle]

Is there a clear explanation at all why this “force MPE” is there at all? I only see its necessary to make it work, but I have no idea why it doesn’t work if its not set. If its not set I don’t get any PB except for channel 1, but I don’t know why.
Bitwig is the only DAW which has to do something to make it work. Ardour for example is completely unaware of MPE, and it just works without a single problem...
Bitwig has created a problem which is now solved (at least most of it), but why create a problem in the first place?
I just don’t know why and would like to know what would go wrong if it would be as simple as in Ardour...

You can use it like Ardour if you want. Use a generic script that is letting everything through and it just works in 2.4.

What you lose is the ability to conveniently edit pitch bend as a per note expression in a WYSIWYG style.
If that doesn't bother you, you can ignore all the MPE fluff and do everything manually.

Some of the overcomplication seems to come from pre-2.4 days when there were no Midi channels at all and some from the "pure" MPE idea of having a system that self-configures itself.

Just be aware that the Midi file export from BWS does not yet maintain channels or automation, so if that is important for you, better record in another DAW.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tj Shredder]

You can use it like Ardour if you want. Use a generic script that is letting everything through and it just works in 2.4.

But what is the difference between “force MPE” and the standard setting. What does it do to the information contained in my Midi information. Why are there two different modes at all???
Whatever It adds to Midi when I edit a sequence, I don’t see any need to trash information, it could simply keep it...