Bitwig

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:14 am

WHAT"S "COMPING" !!!???!!! I can't make sense of half these comments because they refer to something I don't understand.

xx JPRacer xx · Post by **xx JPRacer xx** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:25 am

^ It's kind of like a multi-takes option where you can choose exactly what parts of each takes play at a time.

Imagine you record a section 3 times. After that you can select some parts of section 1, 2 and 3 individually and make your final take from the 3 parts.

It can be useful but for me it's definitely not something important and can already be achieve by other (a little more complicated) ways.

edit: check this video to have a better idea (it's for Studio One): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqP5VZZvZ8

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:47 am

That is pretty slick but I spend so much time obsessively removing breaths and fixing my timing that it wouldn't save me 1% of the time it takes me to get a vocal take right in a mix. It would be great if you spend your days recording musicians and vocalists but surely if you do that you aren't going to be using Bitwig? I'd be using Audition or something if I had to do a lot of recording. Thanks for the response.

peteb2006 · Post by **peteb2006** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:14 am

LOL yet another interesting thread lost to yet another bout of compaining!

u-u-u · Post by **u-u-u** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:13 am

BONES wrote:That is pretty slick but I spend so much time obsessively removing breaths and fixing my timing that it wouldn't save me 1% of the time it takes me to get a vocal take right in a mix. It would be great if you spend your days recording musicians and vocalists but surely if you do that you aren't going to be using Bitwig? I'd be using Audition or something if I had to do a lot of recording. Thanks for the response.

Yeah, and I think that's exactly the point of this thread - that workflows like this get some love be the developers. I don't think they have to do it exact the way Studio 1 does it.

When i think about comping in Bitwig I always think: They already have the multiple audio events inside one clip. Why just introduce also multiple lanes (kind of tracks for audio events) inside one clip? But only one could play at a time. (Except of possible crossfades when switching between two of them) I think that would make crossfades much more intuitive. Because at the moment I can't really see, where the audio events really start and end when doing crossfades.

Also I hope that they don't wait too ling with introducing time signature automation. Of course, those time signature changes already can be done just by ignoring the grid.
But it's not trivial: for example every device that has some synced time parameter dropdown list with options like "1 bar, 2bars, 4bars" (e.g. delay time of the delay) had to be rethought.
And i'd also like kind of signature free areas inside the project where nothing snaps to the grid.
Or I want to have like easy periodic changes of the time signature (like 4/4 and 3/4 alternating). Maybe this can be done using time singatue clips on the master track which can bee looped then?

And I'd also like to see something that goes in the direction of more fluid tempo automation. (which would also include something like Melodyne does with this tempo-detection kind of thing in version 4) I talked to Claas about that at the alst Superbooth. Maybe he liked the idea.
Here they explain the feature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... VeZDnYKy2U
And this unfortunately is in German but he really hits the spot there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VWzgNq9Lt4
I just can subscribe that I don't want to record to a fixed click. And I think that also EDM would benefit a lot from it. The fixed tempo thing is something related to technical restrictions of devices and software, not the music taste of (EDM) musicians. Please free us!

If somebody wants to quantize or just restrict tempo variations a little bit, s/he can so that afterwards in an intuitive Bitwig-style workflow.
And i want to be able to conduct the music program like an orchestra. So there should be something more fluid and sensitive than a "stupid" tap tempo. What if I want to alter the tempo just slightly but inside one quarternote? There should be something like a continuous phase input where a continuous controller could control the tempo. So I could take an expression pedal - or my arm waving up and down - as a continuous "clock source" - but to control the playback speed in realtime - and even during recording. So that's my dream of expressivity to be gained by that.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:04 am

The simple way to fix the time signature issue is to remove time signatures altogether and allow users to freely assign as many beats to a bar as they like. Keeping the default to 4/4 means 90% of people will never have to change it but anyone who wants to can set it up however they like.

vav · Post by **vav** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:30 am

u-u-u wrote: i want to be able to conduct the music program like an orchestra . . . . There should be something like a continuous phase input where a continuous controller could control the tempo. So I could take an expression pedal - or my arm waving up and down - as a continuous "clock source" - but to control the playback speed in realtime - and even during recording. So that's my dream of expressivity to be gained by that.

I may be missing what you're after, but you can map bpm to knob or pedal, etc. (right click on tempo display > map to controller). Then can write changes in automation or tweak during playback. I'm lucky - this is default mapped in my controller transport mode.

vav · Post by **vav** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:01 am

Yeah, being stuck in one time signature per project bugs me, but I make it work. Adding cue markers helps a lot. Also I'll start by placing some key musical elements out along the timeline so the whole song is laid out and can navigate by those elements since bar numbers are arbitrary.

Sometimes if there will be several meter changes, for fun I'll arbitrarily set the project to 11/4 or 17/8, etc. since the downbeat is going to be off most of the time anyway. (Read "fun" as "#$%! this sucks, I'd better lighten up.) Sometimes after a metrically varied passage ends I'll put bright red "DELETE ME" spacer clips to fill in unused grid space till back on the song's main meter. For example, most all of the piece is in 6/4 so that's the project time signature, but then there's a regular old 4/4 chorus that doesn't last long enough to get back to the "one", so all the clips end at the last bar of the chorus, then DELETE ME runs till the next bar where all the clips start again. Sometimes you have to add extra bars for reverb tails, etc.

u-u-u · Post by **u-u-u** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:26 am

vav wrote:
u-u-u wrote: i want to be able to conduct the music program like an orchestra . . . . There should be something like a continuous phase input where a continuous controller could control the tempo. So I could take an expression pedal - or my arm waving up and down - as a continuous "clock source" - but to control the playback speed in realtime - and even during recording. So that's my dream of expressivity to be gained by that.
I may be missing what you're after, but you can map bpm to knob or pedal, etc. (right click on tempo display > map to controller). Then can write changes in automation or tweak during playback. I'm lucky - this is default mapped in my controller transport mode.

Yeah, I know that I can control the tempo parameter - just what I mean is something different.
Like moveing you foot on the pedal up and down creates a sine-like signal (whether it's an exact sine - don't know - but maybe even an odd waveform could be calibrated) and the program takes it as a phase input. So e.g. when it's all the way down at a minimum the playback reaches the beginning of a quarternote, when it's at a maximum it reaches the next eigth note, when it's in between that you still can slow down/speed op the tempo directly. But probably you already know what I mean. Just wanted to clarify

EDIT: When using a foot pedal as input, that picture would describe the concept pretty well:

u-u-u · Post by **u-u-u** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:29 am

vav wrote:Yeah, being stuck in one time signature per project bugs me, but I make it work. Adding cue markers helps a lot. Also I'll start by placing some key musical elements out along the timeline so the whole song is laid out and can navigate by those elements since bar numbers are arbitrary.

Sometimes if there will be several meter changes, for fun I'll arbitrarily set the project to 11/4 or 17/8, etc. since the downbeat is going to be off most of the time anyway. (Read "fun" as "#$%! this sucks, I'd better lighten up.) Sometimes after a metrically varied passage ends I'll put bright red "DELETE ME" spacer clips to fill in unused grid space till back on the song's main meter. For example, most all of the piece is in 6/4 so that's the project time signature, but then there's a regular old 4/4 chorus that doesn't last long enough to get back to the "one", so all the clips end at the last bar of the chorus, then DELETE ME runs till the next bar where all the clips start again. Sometimes you have to add extra bars for reverb tails, etc.

Nice tips!

Thanks a lot!

jonljacobi · Post by **jonljacobi** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:59 pm

incubus wrote:I love it for what it is, but again, comping in some way is exactly what the doctor ordered.

Now, let's be fair: Live doesn't have it. FL doesn't have it (in a way that works to record audio) so it's really only cubase and the like that do.

BREAK THE MOLD!!!

Bitwig is still better at editing audio than live, and live is their main competitor.

@time sigs: Nice but not necessary for what I use bitwig for.

See "all hosts suck"

I think it all depends on what you want to do. For comping, Live lets you undo and redo every take in a loop. It's not separate lanes, but it will let you hear previous takes or get back to the one you want to keep. Bitwig undoes all the takes when looping so there's no way to compare.

Nearly everything I want to do with audio is timing related, and being able to CTR+A then CTRL+I in Live and have all the stretch markers inserted allows me to take care of that in a jiffy. This is the thing I miss the most in Bitwig. Also, I've also gotten used to using the arrangement view to crop and delete sections of audio that I don't like so I never feel the need to do anything more granular, though Bitwig's editing inside a clip is cool.

I do absolutely agree, however, that Bitwig needs to focus on the non-EDM, linear stuff here at some point. It's been so close for so long. I really think the little linear "'eccentricities" cost them more customers than they realize.

Specific things I'd like to see:

1. The ability to scrub the timeline while playing (FF/REW).
2. Keyboard shortcuts for next/previous marker
3. Seamless handling of both raw and warped audio. Raw goes off if you start in the wrong place.
4. Automatic generation of stretch markers across a range.
5. Multiple time signatures--including tuplet-based signatures (that would be something)
6. Handle every take in looped recordings separately. This is really just undoing the additions to the single underlying file. It should be simple to implement.

Add/fix all that and I might even learn to tolerate the new interface.

Hez · Post by **Hez** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Wow, that video of the S1 comping is awesome, pretty much bang on how I'd like to see it implemented in Bitwig (and I agree with the poster above that mentioned how Bitwig's audio containers would fit this approach very nicely).

I'd like to reiterate that comping isn't just useful for recorded live audio! I make quite experimental electronic music and a lot of the patches I create are generative (lots of Reaktor ensembles etc.). Even Bitwig itself has become generative with the addition of the random modulators, random velocity etc. Free running synths like Kaivo & Aalto are also pseudo-generative, in that you will rarely get an identical take played back if you're making use of free running LFOs etc. Add non-generative but 'happy accident' multi FX plugins like Looperator (drag a load of random patches onto the midi trigger list and hammer your keyboard until something fun happens) and you end up with a lot of tracks that don't sound the same each time you press play.

What I tend to do is render 3 or 4 variations of these tracks and then listen back to pick the bits I like. Doing that in Bitwig is kind of cumbersome at the moment. It's not dreadful, as multi clip editing etc. can speed things up quite a lot, but it's definitely a bit fiddly, you end up with tons of excess tracks/messy projects, and it's difficult to audition the different takes fluently. Comping implemented in a similar way to S1 would be a huge boon to my workflow & creativity.

Genres like psytrance/IDM etc. would really benefit from this kind of workflow, where you often have a lead line that is made up of several different patches chopped up in rapid succession.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:12 am

To me that sounds like a pretty extreme use-case. I would never pre-render a softsynth. It would never even occur to me to do it and I don't see how limited dev resources would be best served by catering to extreme/unusual workflows. It's how things end up like FL Studio - jack of all trades, master of none and a complete PITA to work in.

incubus · Post by **incubus** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:01 am

jonljacobi wrote:
incubus wrote:I love it for what it is, but again, comping in some way is exactly what the doctor ordered.

Now, let's be fair: Live doesn't have it. FL doesn't have it (in a way that works to record audio) so it's really only cubase and the like that do.

BREAK THE MOLD!!!

Bitwig is still better at editing audio than live, and live is their main competitor.

@time sigs: Nice but not necessary for what I use bitwig for.

See "all hosts suck"
I think it all depends on what you want to do. For comping, Live lets you undo and redo every take in a loop. It's not separate lanes, but it will let you hear previous takes or get back to the one you want to keep. Bitwig undoes all the takes when looping so there's no way to compare.

Nearly everything I want to do with audio is timing related, and being able to CTR+A then CTRL+I in Live and have all the stretch markers inserted allows me to take care of that in a jiffy. This is the thing I miss the most in Bitwig. Also, I've also gotten used to using the arrangement view to crop and delete sections of audio that I don't like so I never feel the need to do anything more granular, though Bitwig's editing inside a clip is cool.

I do absolutely agree, however, that Bitwig needs to focus on the non-EDM, linear stuff here at some point. It's been so close for so long. I really think the little linear "'eccentricities" cost them more customers than they realize.

Specific things I'd like to see:

1. The ability to scrub the timeline while playing (FF/REW).
2. Keyboard shortcuts for next/previous marker
3. Seamless handling of both raw and warped audio. Raw goes off if you start in the wrong place.
4. Automatic generation of stretch markers across a range.
5. Multiple time signatures--including tuplet-based signatures (that would be something)
6. Handle every take in looped recordings separately. This is really just undoing the additions to the single underlying file. It should be simple to implement.

Add/fix all that and I might even learn to tolerate the new interface.

The scrub would be really nice, you can then detect things a bit more precisely. Plus it sounds like a tape machine

But yeah, these hosts, all missing something.

u-u-u · Post by **u-u-u** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:57 pm

Let me add a time-ruler switch to the request list so that we have two ways time is reflected in the arranger:
Mode A (how it is now)
- would show bars/beats/ticks on the timeline
- bars&beats determine the grid
- the play marker moves accordingly to the current tempo
- tempo automation can be edited as a line in the master track
Mode B (the new approach)
- would show minutes/seconds/milliseconds on the timeline
- all events/waveforms/bar&beatgrid are displayed how they are positioned in the real time
- the play marker always moves with constant speed, because it's the real time
- if I stretch a time range (not possible yet ATM), actually the tempo will be automated in the background (Or actual tempo automation can be done by stretching/moving items in time in the arranger)
- if BwS supports a video track or even video editing someday, this would be the view to work in

Bitwig

KVR Audio

Devs, make Bitwig friendly for non-EDM producers!

I use Bitwig for