What about MSEG modulator in Bitwig ?

[Tj Shredder]

All mentioned external workarounds are not per voice polyphonic. A MSEG is desperately missing. A single ramp generator with a trigger out once its finished is missing as well, that would at least allow to build one yourself... Should also be available as general Bitwig modulator those are polyphonic...

[Tj Shredder]

For example, the current MSEG modulator, only has 4 points... However, each of their position, value and curve can also be modulated. Which allows for more dynamic and evolving modulations than a standard MSEG which usually cannot be modulated.

Not trying to discourage your suggestion... but I guess that pretty much anything you might use an MSEG with more points for can already be done with the current modulators.

Could you point me to that current MSEG modulator? I have not found one yet...

[pdxindy]

All mentioned external workarounds are not per voice polyphonic. A MSEG is desperately missing. A single ramp generator with a trigger out once its finished is missing as well, that would at least allow to build one yourself... Should also be available as general Bitwig modulator those are polyphonic...

You can make the single ramp with trigger in the Grid

Rather than think about an MSEG as such, I think about which shapes I want from an MSEG.Most of what I would use an MSEG for, I can do easily enough already. Some more complex shapes are not so easy, but can at least still be done. Then there are a few use cases which are not currently practical.

So seems to me some discussion of what people want to accomplish is helpful because some people who are looking for an MSEG may not realize that much of what they might want to do is already easy enough as is.

You can build an MSEG in the Grid already using the Parseq-8 because each step is a modulator and can 'trigger' an action. You can do it also just with modulators, but you cannot save a modulator set so you have to make it each time. In the Grid you can build it, then save it as a preset to be easily reused. Also in the Grid you can scope the mod output to see the complex envelope shape.

[pdxindy]

For example, the current MSEG modulator, only has 4 points... However, each of their position, value and curve can also be modulated. Which allows for more dynamic and evolving modulations than a standard MSEG which usually cannot be modulated.

Not trying to discourage your suggestion... but I guess that pretty much anything you might use an MSEG with more points for can already be done with the current modulators.

Could you point me to that current MSEG modulator? I have not found one yet...

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

[mclstr]

Of course you can do the most complex modulations via the MPE modulation automation tracks combined with the standard modulation tracks.

Not only can they be very unique, they can be more expressive that way. They can be just as repetitive as using a complex multistage LFO or envelope, if that is what you want.

The MPE modulation automation is going to allow independent modulation per note in a polyphonic track.

[Scoox]

Can't wait for this...

[brownerthanu]

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

Is there a way to trigger another 4-stage after the first completes?

[Yokai]

Normally I'm one of the first people to suggest workarounds in Bitwig to get the results you want. But on the MSEG front? Bitwig is currently "fail", and the only straightforward way to get true MSEG behavior is to use an MSEG VST that's somehow driving an Audio Rate modulator in Bitwig. Like, for example, Gatekeeper in CV output mode, being tapped by an Audio Rate modulator.

You cannot possibly argue that it's a simple proposition to build a typical MSEG shape like this in the Grid using any combination of Parseq-8, 4-stage, or various Grid modules like Curve or (the various). It's incredibly tedious to use any of those approaches. By contrast, it's dirt simple to draw a shape like this in Gatekeeper and then feed that shape into an Audio Rate modulator. Does it lack per-voice behavior? Of course it does. And that's why we need a *proper* MSEG device in Bitwig itself. But until then, the workarounds are simply far too tedious and time-consuming.

Screen-Shot-2018-08-09-at-8.01.13-PM.png

[Tj Shredder]

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

It is looping, but that might be a bug. Still where do I set a sustain? Certainly a MSEG is needed in the Grid...
If there would a way to chain ramps, all would be good. But I haven’t found a simple ramp either. A trigger starts a move from input value to a destination value, as soon its reached, fire a trigger...
Parseq is rhythmical, how would you set the times completely independent? And its not triggered by note events - this has nothing to do with a MSEG. The other way round could work though, a MSEG could create rhythmical structures like Parseq...

[pdxindy]

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

Is there a way to trigger another 4-stage after the first completes?

No, but you can trigger a different one every X amount of time using ParSeq-8

[pdxindy]

You cannot possibly argue that it's a simple proposition to build a typical MSEG shape like this in the Grid using any combination of Parseq-8, 4-stage, or various Grid modules like Curve or (the various). It's incredibly tedious to use any of those approaches. By contrast, it's dirt simple to draw a shape like this in Gatekeeper and then feed that shape into an Audio Rate modulator. Does it lack per-voice behavior? Of course it does. And that's why we need a *proper* MSEG device in Bitwig itself. But until then, the workarounds are simply far too tedious and time-consuming.
Screen-Shot-2018-08-09-at-8.01.13-PM.png

To me, the question is how often do you need a shape like that? I don't find it much use... and looking at the MSEG shapes in various soft-synths, most of them are easy to do in Bitwig either cause the shapes are simple or rhythmic.

I find it quite tedious using MSEG's. You have to draw it point by point and then if you want to tweak it, that is kinda boring and left-brained. And generally you cannot modulate the shape of an MSEG. MSEG's sound pretty static to me. Most of the time I prefer combining lower level modules like multiplying an LFO and an Envelope because the shape is more dynamic and can be modulated. Plus I find it faster than drawing a bunch of points by hand.

That said, yes I agree it would be useful to have an MSEG in Bitwig. I still wouldn't use it that much, but good to have it nonetheless.

[pdxindy]

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

It is looping, but that might be a bug. Still where do I set a sustain? Certainly a MSEG is needed in the Grid...
If there would a way to chain ramps, all would be good. But I haven’t found a simple ramp either. A trigger starts a move from input value to a destination value, as soon its reached, fire a trigger...
Parseq is rhythmical, how would you set the times completely independent? And its not triggered by note events - this has nothing to do with a MSEG. The other way round could work though, a MSEG could create rhythmical structures like Parseq...

Not all MSEG's can set a sustain level.

The AD Envelope can be a ramp up or ramp down.

And yes, the ParSeq-8 can be triggered by note events. You can play a note to start it playing or you can advance a step with each new note. You can modulate the speed of it so it doesn't need to be on grid time

[don_looney]

All of you should send in a feature request for a MSEG Modulator. I did it too.
Maybe we see this Modulator in the near future.

Iam using Shaperbox from Cableguys for MSEG stuff.

[Tj Shredder]

4-Stage is an MSEG... it's just limited to the 4 stages (5 points).

It is looping, but that might be a bug. Still where do I set a sustain? Certainly a MSEG is needed in the Grid...
If there would a way to chain ramps, all would be good. But I haven’t found a simple ramp either. A trigger starts a move from input value to a destination value, as soon its reached, fire a trigger...
Parseq is rhythmical, how would you set the times completely independent? And its not triggered by note events - this has nothing to do with a MSEG. The other way round could work though, a MSEG could create rhythmical structures like Parseq...

Not all MSEG's can set a sustain level.

The AD Envelope can be a ramp up or ramp down.

And yes, the ParSeq-8 can be triggered by note events. You can play a note to start it playing or you can advance a step with each new note. You can modulate the speed of it so it doesn't need to be on grid time

But I need a sustain...
To built a MSEG out of ADs will glitch at each transition, no, it does not replace a ramp at all...
To teach ParSeq anything MSEG like would be such a pain just by thinking of, it contradicts the main design philosophy of Bitwig: KISS...
Its missing and no workaround will be faster than to wait until its implemented...; - )

[pdxindy]

To teach ParSeq anything MSEG like would be such a pain just by thinking of

I built an MSEG in the Grid and using ParSeq-8... it's working well for me as a complex shaped LFO and is easy to edit.

The reason I like using simpler tools combined to build the modulation shape is because they allow the modulation shape itself to be modulated. MSEG shape is static

I'm not arguing against having an MSEG in Bitwig... but I do think the concept is overrated and kinda clumsy in various situations