Combining Clip View and Arrangement View

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KVRian
565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:51 am

Is it possible to set up a repeating set of views in the Clip View by using the Play Next and the Play First actions BUT to combine this with automation programmed in the Arrangement View? I've tried this out by setting an automation shape over a few bars for the Volume in the Arrangement View. However the Volume of the track in question stays the same, even though the Playback head can be seen travelling in the Arrangement View, governed by the length of the Loop Region.

I was hoping to be able to use the Clip View to assemble my various building blocks for the tracks and to use the Arrangement View to provide the variation in Send FXs such as Delay and Reverb for a programmed Dub approach.

Of course, I can shift everything over to the Arrangement view and use Looped Clips and add the Automation alongside. It's just that I thought it would be nice to provide a useful degree of mental separation to keep the source of the clips distinct from the Automation, and to have the visual separation to reflect that.

KVRist
107 posts since 18 Sep, 2020

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:35 am

At any given time the track is playing either from Arranger or the Launcher, not both simultaneously. This includes both source and automation.

A moving playhead does not automatically mean the track is reading from the Arranger. If the track is playing from the Launcher it is ignoring track automation.

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KVRAF
7962 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:12 am

carlca wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:51 am
Is it possible...
Not as you describe (for the reasons @minortom explained), but you can do it using 2 tracks. On one you have your midi or audio going through clips using next actions. On the other you have one or more longer clips with CC automation. You read the CC on the former from the latter using Note Receiver and MIDI Modulator, to automate whatever.

I believe similar trick in Ableton was called "dummy clips", but it worked only for effects as you had to pass the sound coming from 1st track through the 2nd.
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KVRian

Topic Starter

565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:38 am

Thanks, Antic! This sounds interesting. The situation I have has 4 midi tracks and 1 audio track. I also have 2 FX Send tracks, one for Delay and one for Reverb. A lot of the automation would be concerned with the send amounts sent from each of the 5 tracks to the 2 FX tracks as well as the Volume settings for the individual tracks. Would these factors be compatible with the approach that you have just described?

I'm guessing that this would need 5 automation tracks, which wouldn't be the end of the world, and would depend on Bitwig's ability to play from both Clips and Arrangement, but for DIFFERENT tracks. Would that be correct?

Thanks as well to @MinorTom for the explanation of the basic ground rules which apply here. I suspected that was the case but it's good to have it confirmed!

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KVRAF
7962 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:43 am

carlca wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:38 am
Thanks, Antic! This sounds interesting. The situation I have has 4 midi tracks and 1 audio track. I also have 2 FX Send tracks, one for Delay and one for Reverb. A lot of the automation would be concerned with the send amounts sent from each of the 5 tracks to the 2 FX tracks as well as the Volume settings for the individual tracks. Would these factors be compatible with the approach that you have just described?

I'm guessing that this would need 5 automation tracks, which wouldn't be the end of the world, and would depend on Bitwig's ability to play from both Clips and Arrangement, but for DIFFERENT tracks. Would that be correct?

Thanks as well to @MinorTom for the explanation of the basic ground rules which apply here. I suspected that was the case but it's good to have it confirmed!
1) No, you don't need 5 automation tracks, just 5 different CCs. Unless of course you want those automations to have different lengths, looping and next action settings, then you might need more than 1 track.

2) Because you'd use MIDI modulator to modulate volume or sends, you'd have to use e.g. Tool device for volume and FX Layer's send (that's on each layer) for send. You can't use modulator to move track's volume or send levels, but the above "tricks" should give you the effect you're looking for.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian

Topic Starter

565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:56 am

antic604 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:43 am
1) No, you don't need 5 automation tracks, just 5 different CCs. Unless of course you want those automations to have different lengths, looping and next action settings, then you might need more than 1 track.

2) Because you'd use MIDI modulator to modulate volume or sends, you'd have to use e.g. Tool device for volume and FX Layer's send (that's on each layer) for send. You can't use modulator to move track's volume or send levels, but the above "tricks" should give you the effect you're looking for.
I'm not quite grasping this! Because I work best on a "Monkey see, monkey do" basis (πŸ˜‰), is there any chance of a couple of pictures or a throw-away project to illustrate this?

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KVRAF
7962 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:03 pm

carlca wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:56 am
antic604 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:43 am
1) No, you don't need 5 automation tracks, just 5 different CCs. Unless of course you want those automations to have different lengths, looping and next action settings, then you might need more than 1 track.

2) Because you'd use MIDI modulator to modulate volume or sends, you'd have to use e.g. Tool device for volume and FX Layer's send (that's on each layer) for send. You can't use modulator to move track's volume or send levels, but the above "tricks" should give you the effect you're looking for.
I'm not quite grasping this! Because I work best on a "Monkey see, monkey do" basis (πŸ˜‰), is there any chance of a couple of pictures or a throw-away project to illustrate this?
Sure. After I've cleaned the toilet :D I'm on 3.3.7, so you'll have to have that installed for it to work :)
Music tech enthusiast.
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KVRian

Topic Starter

565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:13 pm

antic604 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:03 pm
Sure. After I've cleaned the toilet :D I'm on 3.3.7, so you'll have to have that installed for it to work :)
That would be fab! What a glamorous life you lead πŸ˜‰ 3.3.7 is fine with me - no obscure ".SO" dependencies, now!

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KVRAF
7962 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:30 pm

carlca wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:13 pm
antic604 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:03 pm
Sure. After I've cleaned the toilet :D I'm on 3.3.7, so you'll have to have that installed for it to work :)
That would be fab! What a glamorous life you lead πŸ˜‰ 3.3.7 is fine with me - no obscure ".SO" dependencies, now!
Ok, here you go - download the project file at the bottom of this post :)

Just start the 1st scene.

There are 2 tracks with CC#20 and CC#21 clip automation of different lengths. The bassline track captures that MIDI (pay attention to Input buttons on Note Receivers!) and uses that - via MIDI modulators - to modulate the Send amounts in FX Layer. Hope that's helpful.

Image

@carlca.zip
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Music tech enthusiast.
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My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian

Topic Starter

565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:00 pm

antic604 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:30 pm
Ok, here you go - download the project file at the bottom of this post :)
Thanks for that! I've got it loaded and it plays. I'll have to study it tomorrow morning πŸ˜€

KVRist
107 posts since 18 Sep, 2020

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:20 pm

Another idea for splitting the clips is to flip that around: instead of sending automation via MIDI from another track, send the notes/audio. It's simpler.

image_2021-04-04_231636.png
(in this example the "note source" track has no devices of its own, but it could)

Note that there are some interesting extremes to explore here. For example, you can have a single track with all the project's devices in a Layer container, all modulatable and driven together by one automation track. VoilΓ , global modulation. You could even automate where the instrument is receiving the source data from, and so on.

Seems pretty powerful.
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KVRian

Topic Starter

565 posts since 17 Jan, 2005 from London

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:30 pm

minortom wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:20 pm
Another idea for splitting the clips is to flip that around: instead of sending automation via MIDI from another track, send the notes/audio. It's simpler.
Thanks! For the moment, I'm pursuing Antic's approach except that I'm using the Automation recorded in the Arrangement view since for the music I'm making, it's more important to see how the automation varies across the length of the track, whereas the music clips can be smaller and self-contained. This relies on the fact that the either/or limitation that you described in your first reply only applies to a single track; across multiple tracks, it seems to work well.

I'll certainly study your suggestion as well, in the morning; it's a bit late for in-depth thinking πŸ˜‰

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