arpeggiator and latch question

Official support for: rogerlinndesign.com
jsterne
KVRist
123 posts since 25 Jul, 2010

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:00 am

Greetings everyone.

I keep having a problem with arpeggiator and latch. Let's say I turn on latch and arpeggiator, then I play, all at once, G, Bb, D, Eb. It gives me a nice arpeggio, and if I leave my fingers there I can modulate all sorts of cool things by wiggling my fingers a little to mess with the Y axis and aftertouch.

But when I remove my fingers (perhaps to set them down somewhere else), it starts over at G no matter where it is in the arpeggio at that very moment. This happens every time.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks.

John the Savage
KVRist
371 posts since 28 Mar, 2017

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:17 pm

That's a bug that I sussed-out and documented for Roger, in quite some detail, must be over a year ago now. There were actually several issues with the arp implementation at that time, including some related to how it worked in conjunction with the Legato functionality.

Regardless, I thought they were all but fixed in the most recent firmware, but I could be wrong about that. Admittedly, I don't use the arp much.

Coincidentally, the arp in the Tempest suffers from the exact same anomaly, but no one at DSI ever took it seriously. Anyway, let me check if it's happening on my LinnStrument here (I might be running a beta), and I'll see if I can find my notes detailing this bug...

Out of curiosity, does it behave this way when the LinnStrument is receiving MIDI clock, or just when it's running free?

Cheers!
Last edited by John the Savage on Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jsterne
KVRist
123 posts since 25 Jul, 2010

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:40 pm

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually relieved to hear it's a bug. I thought I was doing something wrong. It seems to behave the same way whether it's sending or receiving MIDI clock, but I haven't tested all scenarios.

If you've got a beta on yours, it would be great to know if the behaviour has been fixed in the next OS. I do make use of the arpeggiator from time to time, as I switch between synth and bass, and it's great to have some overlap on a synth line when switching over.

John the Savage
KVRist
371 posts since 28 Mar, 2017

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:47 pm

I'm balls deep in a mix here currently, in the studio, and don't have the LinnStrument with me; but I'll dig it out when I get home later and check, if Roger doesn't read this in the meantime and beat me too it (grin)...

Cheers!

User avatar
Roger_Linn
KVRian
1387 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:03 pm

jsterne wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:00 am
I keep having a problem with arpeggiator and latch. Let's say I turn on latch and arpeggiator, then I play, all at once, G, Bb, D, Eb. It gives me a nice arpeggio, and if I leave my fingers there I can modulate all sorts of cool things by wiggling my fingers a little to mess with the Y axis and aftertouch.

But when I remove my fingers (perhaps to set them down somewhere else), it starts over at G no matter where it is in the arpeggio at that very moment. This happens every time.
If I use your example here with the current software version 2.2.1, it works fine, every time. To be clear, I turn on Arpeggiator then hold the foot switch (assigned to "Latch") down, then hold a 4-note chord, which results in arpeggiating the chord. Then without releasing the foot pedal, I release the 4-note chord (it continues playing) and play another note, which results in an arpeggiated 5-note chord containing all notes so far.

What you write "latch", I assume you have assigned the panel or foot switch that you're using to the "Latch" function ("LAT") in Global Settings > Assign Switch, correct?

If you're getting a different result, please send a brief video demonstrating the problem to the support address so I can see what you're doing differently.

John the Savage
KVRist
371 posts since 28 Mar, 2017

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Hi Roger,

So, I just tested this here, and yes, the "LAT" function does seem to be working as expected. However, the symptoms that J is experiencing do occur when using the "LEG" functionality; which, to be fair, is more akin to how the "latch" function works on most other arpeggiators.

In addition to that, the above bug also applies to regular use of the arpeggiator as well, even without having latch or legato engaged: i.e. the arpeggiator resets every time a note is released within a chord, which results in abrupt transitions and often choked notes as well.

As mentioned above, the Tempest also suffers from this affliction; only worse, because it doesn't even keep time when it resets the pattern. So, something in the Linn/Smith arp ideology is amiss (wink).

Cheers!

User avatar
Roger_Linn
KVRian
1387 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:34 pm

Hi John,

That's not a bug, it's a feature! As stated in the manual:

LEG (Legato mode): While switch is on, notes or chords are sustained after release until the next note or chord is played.

Try it: keep Legato mode on, play a chord, then release it and play another, then release it and play another. Notice that the each chord sustains until the next chord is played.

John the Savage
KVRist
371 posts since 28 Mar, 2017

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:50 pm

Yes, I understand how it's intended to work. I maintain, however, that there's a problem with how it functions in practice. The "legato" mode simply doesn't yield expected results, especially for anyone familiar with typical arp-hold functionality. I don't know how else to describe it, other than what I've already said. But I'm here to confirm for J that he's not crazy, that the arp is indeed misbehaving, and that he's not the only person to question this behavior.

For the record, it's a clever and unique implementation otherwise; but I never use the LinnStrument's arp because of how it unceremoniously resets the pattern whenever a note/notes (i.e. be it a single note within a chord or the entire chord at once) are released. And as previously stated, this happens regardless of whether legato is engaged or not.

The bottom line is, the arp pattern should NOT reset when notes are released. That is a bug, not a feature.

Cheers!

jsterne
KVRist
123 posts since 25 Jul, 2010

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:31 am

Hi Roger,

Thanks for checking. I’m sorry, I meant “legato” in the Linnstrument’s terms. And my issue is exactly the same as John’s. My workaround has been to use an on-board arpeggiator on my synth and just the legato mode on the Linnstrument. Then everything works as expected.

User avatar
Roger_Linn
KVRian
1387 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:09 pm

I must admit that I was having a little trouble understanding this problem. Fortunately, John the Savage just emailed me with a step-by-step method that allowed me to reproduce the bug:

Legato ON:
Choose a slow clock rate and time division, so you can keep track of the note repeats...
Hold down a four-note chord, and pay close attention to the pattern as it cycles - 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... etc.
Now, when the pattern reaches either notes 2 or 3, quickly lift up your fingers...
You'll hear the pattern reset - 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1 ...

Legato OFF:
Same as above, hold down a four-note chord, only this time lift just one of your fingers up mid-pattern, and you'll hear that the pattern also resets to note 1 ...

For the others who have posted in this thread, does John's description match the problem you're seeing?

jsterne
KVRist
123 posts since 25 Jul, 2010

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:19 pm

Yes, this is it exactly.

User avatar
Roger_Linn
KVRian
1387 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:52 am

Hi all,

I've dug a little deeper into this one and I think the essential problem is that the Arpeggiator note order resets when middle notes are released under specific conditions:

Set Arpeggiator to 1/8 notes, Up direction and a slow tempo of around 80 BPM so it's easy to hear the problem. Then with Arpeggiator on, hold a 4-note chord and hear it arpeggiate. Then release the second note of the chord immediately after it plays in the arpeggio. Notice that the Arpeggiator resets to playing the first note of the chord, followed by the 2 remaining held notes. Notice that this problem does not occur if you release the second note immediately before it plays.

The same problem occurs if Legato mode is ON while you do the above. So Legato mode is not really relevant.

Question: why is anyone using Legato mode with the Arpeggiator? It is not intended for use with the Arpeggiator but rather for live play. Latch mode is intended for use with the Arpeggiator, and in my tests here, it doesn't exhibit the problem that people are experiencing with Legato mode.

John the Savage
KVRist
371 posts since 28 Mar, 2017

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:50 pm

Roger_Linn wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:52 am
Question: why is anyone using Legato mode with the Arpeggiator? It is not intended for use with the Arpeggiator but rather for live play. Latch mode is intended for use with the Arpeggiator, and in my tests here, it doesn't exhibit the problem that people are experiencing with Legato mode.
Easy...

Because the LinnStrument's current "latch" mode, while an interesting implementation, doesn't behave like your typical arp latch or hold functionality; whereas the legato mode does. That is to say, most arpeggiators allow you to add notes to the pattern only while one or more notes are still being physically held down; and subsequently, if/when those notes have all been released, any new notes played will then replace the previous pattern in its entirety. This is necessary if one is to perform with the arp in a musical context.

As it stands, the "latch" function behaves more like a rudimentary sequencer; which is somewhat ironic, if redundant, because the LinnStrument already has a proper rudimentary sequencer, which can be used in much the same way.

To that end, if you're going to keep just one, please keep the legato mode, because it works as one would expect an arp hold to work (bug notwithstanding). Though perhaps it would be better to call it "hold" instead, since it's not technically a "legato" articulation (wink).

I'll turn this over to the talented Lisa Bella Donna to demonstrate what proficient arp players expect in terms of arp functionality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU0RRBDZLo0

Cheers!
Last edited by John the Savage on Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jsterne
KVRist
123 posts since 25 Jul, 2010

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:07 pm

He beat me to it, but this is exactly right.

User avatar
Roger_Linn
KVRian
1387 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: arpeggiator and latch question

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:14 pm

Thanks, John. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that changing the operation of the current Legato mode to your description (not resetting the arpeggio to the lowest note when any touch is released) would be suit your needs, and if so then you see no need for the Latch mode. Is this correct?

Return to “Roger Linn Design”