Bitwig pitch bend issue (was “How do I perform smooth glides?”)

[tvdv]

I’m having trouble performing smooth glides on Linnstrument. For me, sliding over the gaps between the notes results in audible pitch stepping:

Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 20.32.38.png

I can reduce this stepping by rotating my hand 90 degrees so that my finger points in the direction of the slide like this:

IMG_0931.jpg

That way I am able to perform and record smooth glides:

Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 20.33.31.png

Holding my hand like that is obviously not an optimal way to play.

Are there any techniques I could use to improve the smoothness of the glides I play, or is this just a matter of my fingers not being soft or big enough to play LinnStrument effectively?

[BobDog]

Are you pressing down quite hard when you slide?

[BobDog]

I just tried to try to replicate your stepped pitch bend, I tried hard pressure, soft pressure, using my fingernails and slowing down on the in-between note grooves and could not replicate what you are seeing.

I wonder if your linnstrument might need a reset, or maybe recalibrating. Roger will be around soon, I guess he will have more ideas.

[theracon]

Same problem here, grooves result in pitch bump.
The workaround is to press harder, but that also means anything attached to the aftertouch will be triggered at max...
I'd really want a flat surface (but Roger Linn already explained to me that he doesn't have blank sheets)

[Roger_Linn]

I see that this topic has moved from the "best DAW" topic, where I just asked TVDV to post a brief video demonstrating the problem:

If you could post a brief video showing the problem you're experiencing, I could understand it better. Please insure that the video records slides as you normally perform them in your music and not for example extremely slowly in order to exaggerate the problem.

[John the Savage]

It seems reasonably clear to me that this issue has to do with the OP's playing technique, not the LinnStrument or Bitwig. I mean, just like BobDog, I also cannot reproduce this anomaly for trying. And, case in point, the OP immediately got better results when he rotated his hand 90 degrees and tried the slide again, which demonstrates that the issue has to do with the consistency of his sliding technique rather than the hardware or software.

In the same way that an amateur guitarist might have trouble performing a uniform glissando over the frets, it all hinges on a delicate balance of even pressure, smooth acceleration, and a consistent angle of attack. Lateral movements of the wrist are, without question, difficult to master; hence why the problem disappeared when the OP pulled toward himself with the flat of his finger instead of sliding sideways on the edge of his finger. Just saying...

When you can jump further forward than you can sideways, you don't blame the shoes (wink).

Cheers!

[tvdv]

I see that this topic has moved from the "best DAW" topic, where I just asked TVDV to post a brief video demonstrating the problem

I created this new topic before you responded there because I concluded that the issue I was seeing had more to do with the way I was playing than with the way Bitwig records pitch bend data.

I’ll try to find time to make a demo video to show you what I’m doing in the coming days, but it won’t be much more than me sliding my finger an octave down while you hear something very much the same as in the first sweep of the audio recording I posted previously:

https://soundcloud.com/thijsvandervossen/sweep/s-qyVEZ

What’s interesting in a nerdy sort of way is that recording the performance as MIDI events in Bitwig and then playing that recording back does make the stepping more audible as you can see in the other thread.

[tvdv]

Same problem here, grooves result in pitch bump.
The workaround is to press harder, but that also means anything attached to the aftertouch will be triggered at max...

Yes, pressing harder does alleviate the issue for me, but I really do have to press rather close to maximum aftertouch for this.

Same problem here, grooves result in pitch bump.
I'd really want a flat surface (but Roger Linn already explained to me that he doesn't have blank sheets)

I’m happy to accept this behavior as part of the instrument design; I’m just trying to find out whether or not I am missing an obvious technique.

It seems reasonably clear to me that this issue has to do with the OP's playing technique, not the LinnStrument or Bitwig.

As with most things, it’s a bit more complicated than that. I’m happy to accept that my technique isn’t optimal, but the pitch bumps clearly do occur when I slide over the gaps so the design of the instrument plays at least some kind of role here.

Also, as I mentioned before, Bitwig does make the pitch bumps more apparent after recording a performance as MIDI data because of the way it processes pitch bend messages.

I mean, just like BobDog, I also cannot reproduce this anomaly for trying. And, case in point, the OP immediately got better results when he rotated his hand 90 degrees and tried the slide again, which demonstrates that the issue has to do with the consistency of his sliding technique rather than the hardware or software.

In the same way that an amateur guitarist might have trouble performing a uniform glissando over the frets, it all hinges on a delicate balance of even pressure, smooth acceleration, and a consistent angle of attack. Lateral movements of the wrist are, without question, difficult to master; hence why the problem disappeared when the OP pulled toward himself with the flat of his finger instead of sliding sideways on the edge of his finger.

Again, I am the first to admit that this has to do with my playing technique.

However, I do think that the difference between the two attempts has less to do with a difference in pressure consistency and a lack of uniform acceleration, but that the reason why I got better results when I rotated my hand 90° is simply because doing so greatly increases the contact area between my finger and the playing surface.

I assume that when the contact area is bigger, the gap between the notes has less impact on x-axis location of the contact area registered by the sensor and averaged to a contact point by the software in the LinnStrument. In other words, it might be easier to do smooth glides if your fingers are less thin and pointy than mine!

I tried to illustrate this in the image below. The red area on the left represents a pointy finger, or one with light pressure that results in a smaller contact area, the blue area on the right represents a fat finger, or one with strong pressure that results in a bigger contact area.

When the red finger moves over the gap, the difference between the area that transfers pressure to the sensor and the area that doesn’t (because it’s above the gap‚ is much bigger than when the blue finger moves over a gap, resulting in more clearly audible pitch “bumps”.

thin-vs-wide.png

[John the Savage]

I get your point, but every instrument is subject to certain rules-of-play.

Using the guitar as an example again: if you slide your finger up or down a given string with too little force, the string is going to buzz; but if you use too much force or slide too slowly, you're going to get stepping and pitch variants as the string depresses between the frets. What I'm saying is, if you want a playing surface on which you can perform an unfettered glissando without proviso, you're only option is a touch screen really. But then touch screens don't provide any physical feedback; hence why there's a market for the LinnStrument in the first place. Simply put, if you want a tactile experience, friction and ergonomics are going to impose certain limitations. This grievance about maxing-out the aftertouch, for example, would constitute one of those limitations. The laws of physics being what they are, it's just not possible to design a musical instrument interface that can accommodate every sound and every gesture all at once. That said, the LinnStrument comes about as close as any instrument ever has.

My point was only that this issue is not a fundamental problem with the LinnStrument itself or the software you're using. Your examples have demonstrated that. If anything, I see it as a paradox in sound-design: i.e. some sounds are going to be ideal for pressing harder and sliding around, whereas others might benefit more from a lighter touch, or a percussive one for that matter. Traditionally, you'd have to change instruments completely to accommodate such a wide palette of sounds and playing techniques, so we're pretty lucky in that respect.

At any rate, perhaps I do press harder than you when I perform pitch slides, but I also design sounds to respond to a heavier touch when the performance demands it. For the record though, I have pretty slender fingers, and I wouldn't say that I have a "heavy" touch per se. Regardless, I was unable to reproduce this stepping anomaly even with a lighter touch, so...

Cheers!

[BobDog]

Tvdv

I really don't think it is anything to do with surface area of your finger tip, I can use the end of my fingernail and get perfectly smooth pitchbend.

As a test why don't you try placing some sheets of paper over the top of your linnstrument (I tried with 6 sheets of A4 on top of each other) so that you can't feel the gaps and see if that cures the problem?

[Roger_Linn]

Hi tvdv,

It would be most helpful if you could post a brief video of your perceived problem, again showing a real-life musical slide as opposed to a very slow finger movement to exaggerate the problem. All of the words don’t really mean much without the context, and a video provides that context in a few seconds. At this point, I don’t know how fast or slow you’re playing a slide, how hard or soft you’re pressing, your level of musical or gestural skill, what type of music you’re trying to perform, your relative focus on music vs. technical detail, the sounds you are using, etc.

It also might be helpful for you to watch some of the many videos on the LinnStrument Videos page of people performing pitch slides without problems, then ask yourself what you’re doing differently.

In the other thread, you also raised a different point about Bitwig thinning/smoothing out continuous MIDI data after recording, and you kindly demonstrated this in your video:

https://vimeo.com/268444348

I was not aware of this and thank you for pointing it out. Apparently this is Bitwig’s way of trying to help people avoid MIDI data congestion on slower computers. It seems like a creative and effective solution to me, and I hadn’t personally noticed any problems with it before with any pitch bend gestural data I’ve recorded, but I haven’t spent as much time recording with Bitwig as perhaps others have.

[tvdv]

I get your point, but every instrument is subject to certain rules-of-play.

Sure, just trying to figure out what those are.

[tvdv]

In this video, you’ll first hear a slide an octave up I performed on a mod wheel, then the same slide an octave up performed on Linnstrument while I’m trying to make it as smooth as possible, but still getting a little bit of the “stepping” or “pitch bumping” I’ve been referring to.

https://vimeo.com/268595517

It would be most helpful if you could post a brief video of your perceived problem, again showing a real-life musical slide as opposed to a very slow finger movement to exaggerate the problem.

Roger, I’d like to make it absolutely clear that I do not perceived this behavior as a big problem. I’m just trying to figure out where the constraints are. I’m pretty sure I rather have the grooves to guide my fingers than the ability to do super-smooth pitch slides easily.

At this point, I don’t know how fast or slow you’re playing a slide, how hard or soft you’re pressing, your level of musical or gestural skill, what type of music you’re trying to perform, your relative focus on music vs. technical detail, the sounds you are using, etc.

This has no impact on the music I’ve been playing on LinnStrument so far. It does have an impact when I tried to record a double bass part into Bitwig because of Bitwig’s behavior as demonstrated in https://vimeo.com/268444348 exaggerates the stepping.

The only thing that concerns me is that I can’t replicate the smooth curve posted by BobDog in the other thread. But again, that might just be a matter of technique.

I was not aware of this and thank you for pointing it out. Apparently this is Bitwig’s way of trying to help people avoid MIDI data congestion on slower computers.

I think their goal with this is not so much to prevent congestion, but to keep their micro-pitch events easy to edit. It just doesn’t work that well for the very minor stepping I’m getting with LinnStrument.

[Roger_Linn]

Thanks for the video, and it is also helpful to now know which customer you are so I can associate your forum posts with your emails. I keep a spreadsheet of associations in order to know which pseudonym is which customer, but first forum posts are always a bit of a guessing game.

Unfortunately I can’t hear any pitch stepping or irrregularity in the video, nor can I see any physical stepping or irregularity in the video image. So I’m afraid I don’t yet understand the musical problem you are experiencing, and music after all is the goal of a musical instrument. One thing you might try is to turn off Quantize Hold or to change its rate. Quantize Hold is in Per-Split Settings under Pitch/X.

You mentioned above “I’m just trying to find out where the constraints are.” If you are specifically searching for LinnStrument’s limitations, I am confident that you will find others more significant than this. For example, you will find some good ones on the LinnStrument Specs and FAQ pages under the heading “What are the limitations of LinnStrument's sensor technology?”

[BobDog]

Looking and listening to the video I'm thinking the problem must be in Bitwigs recording of the pitchbend data, I don't think it is anything to do with your technique which looks fine.

I would try another DAW and see if the problem goes away then we know if it is Bitwig causing the issue.