Beta-Testing EMM Knagalis VSTi (Ethnic Melodic Module)
Important Request Info Below
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EMM Knagalis is a specialized VSTi sample player, modeled around the structural elements of Sitar, the famous indian lute. But its sound set includes also other, stringed or percussive, ethnic melodic instruments, like bouzuki, Mbira (thumb piano), shamishen. An exception is the bagpipe, a wind instrument, but included too in the sound set for its legato playing style and drone accompaniment, which fits the design of the synth.
The EMM Knagalis sample set includes three layers:
lead sound (monophonic)
sympathetic emulation sound (polyphonic)
drone sound (monophonic)
With this design, any melodic instrument, with sympathetic resonance and
usually played with drone can be emulated. Yet the Drone and sympatethic layers are also used to provide a good emulation of different ethnic instruments. For Mbira sound the Drone layer is used to play the buzzing effect that the real Mbiras produces by tiny metal pieces nailed to the wood box of the intrument, while the Sympathetic layer adds the rich polyphonic resonance of the other reeds of the thumb piano.
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IMPORTANT
The Beta-Testing will be closed to approved-members, and to a limited number of users. Don't post messages here asking where to download or how to be on the Beta-Testing. EMM was already on betatesting when this forum started and some testers are already working on it. Join the team.
The current user-list for beta-testing is CLOSED.
Also, the plug is open to new SoundSets. Thanxs to the new SoundSets
.DASHsnd file format. You can have hundreds of new SoundSets.
Best Regards, WilliamK and Luigi Felici (Liqih)
Knagalis EMM previous tests
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 5089 posts since 12 Jun, 2001 from Wusik Dot Com
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- KVRAF
- 2381 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
I'm having a bit of trouble getting good results with Bagpipe1, on EMM. It seems that there is some sort of "vibrato" effect that gets faster and faster, as you play higher and higher pitches on the keyboard. In the upper ranges, the voice is fairly useless because of this, in my opinion.
The drone for Bagpipe1 also has some sort of "vibrato" sound, but it is a slow vibrato that is much more tolerable. This is probably only because it's a low pitched note, that the vibrato is so slow.
Bagpipe2 doesn't have this "vibrato" sound, and it MUCH MORE useful and pleasant.
(Just so you know, yes I turned off the phaser and anything else that I thought might be affecting the basic sound of Bagpipe1, but nothing got rid of the warble in the voice.)
later,
McLilith
The drone for Bagpipe1 also has some sort of "vibrato" sound, but it is a slow vibrato that is much more tolerable. This is probably only because it's a low pitched note, that the vibrato is so slow.
Bagpipe2 doesn't have this "vibrato" sound, and it MUCH MORE useful and pleasant.
(Just so you know, yes I turned off the phaser and anything else that I thought might be affecting the basic sound of Bagpipe1, but nothing got rid of the warble in the voice.)
later,
McLilith
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- KVRAF
- 2381 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
I just sent you a note about the "Bagpipe1" voice of EMM not having a stable pitch.
I decided to work with Bagpipe2 for now, because it seemed so much better. That's when I discovered another type of pitch problem in Bagpipe2. Please be aware, the following comments assume 12-note Equal temperament tuning. I have no idea how other temperaments might affect things.
Basically, the various octaves are not in tune with each other. For example, you can use a low C for reference, and higher C notes will be progressively more and more out of tune, with respect to that low C note. Different octaves of C notes should be in tune with each other, and have no obvious beating occurring. Unfortunately, the higher the note that you play on Bagpipe2, the more out of tune the notes are with respect to the lower notes.
This might also be happening on other voices, and I would expect that is probably the case, but I haven't confirmed it on other voices yet. Bagpipe1 has so much "vibrato", that I can't even tell what is "vibrato" and what is out-of-tune "beating".
later,
McLilith
I decided to work with Bagpipe2 for now, because it seemed so much better. That's when I discovered another type of pitch problem in Bagpipe2. Please be aware, the following comments assume 12-note Equal temperament tuning. I have no idea how other temperaments might affect things.
Basically, the various octaves are not in tune with each other. For example, you can use a low C for reference, and higher C notes will be progressively more and more out of tune, with respect to that low C note. Different octaves of C notes should be in tune with each other, and have no obvious beating occurring. Unfortunately, the higher the note that you play on Bagpipe2, the more out of tune the notes are with respect to the lower notes.
This might also be happening on other voices, and I would expect that is probably the case, but I haven't confirmed it on other voices yet. Bagpipe1 has so much "vibrato", that I can't even tell what is "vibrato" and what is out-of-tune "beating".
later,
McLilith
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- KVRAF
- 2381 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Faux-Bug Report:
I noticed that the default setting for the Drone split point is "C0". Might I suggest setting this a bit higher? I think perhaps "C3" would be a more universally useful setting. At least "C2" would be an improvement.
Yes, of course this is easily set by the end user, but I think it would be better to have a more useful default setting than "C0". With my keyboard, "C0" is the 1st key of the keyboard. A total beginner to EMM might try the split mode for the drone and not think it worked--until he later realized the split point was too low. So, why not make things even easier on the beginning end user, and set the default split point higher by 2 octaves?
Even knowng about it, the issue is still a distraction. Each time I want to use EMM, I have to set the split point again.
thanks,
McLilith
I noticed that the default setting for the Drone split point is "C0". Might I suggest setting this a bit higher? I think perhaps "C3" would be a more universally useful setting. At least "C2" would be an improvement.
Yes, of course this is easily set by the end user, but I think it would be better to have a more useful default setting than "C0". With my keyboard, "C0" is the 1st key of the keyboard. A total beginner to EMM might try the split mode for the drone and not think it worked--until he later realized the split point was too low. So, why not make things even easier on the beginning end user, and set the default split point higher by 2 octaves?
Even knowng about it, the issue is still a distraction. Each time I want to use EMM, I have to set the split point again.
thanks,
McLilith
Faux-Bug: That which appears to be a mistake in software, but which is more a matter of style, than an actual programming error.
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- KVRist
- 326 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Tragorden
no problems loading, saving or reopening tracktion projects, and all knobs respond as expected. no cpu load or stability issues, either
i hope you leave in the sine sound set
will it be possible for users to create custom sound sets? i'd like to try making an open tuning guitar sound set, with fret noise for sympathetic sound?
tracktion
athlon (old)
kx asio
i hope you leave in the sine sound set
will it be possible for users to create custom sound sets? i'd like to try making an open tuning guitar sound set, with fret noise for sympathetic sound?
tracktion
athlon (old)
kx asio
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
Just got the beta and started messing around in Tracktion.. Seems stable so far. On the topic of the bagpipes though:
I'm no expert on the instrument, so maybe different ranges are supposed to have very different tones, but with D3 and after I get a much different tone than below with Bagpipe2 (not present on Bagpipe1). Also there sounds like some hi-freq artifacts with these notes - there is buzzing in the upper range and I'm pretty sure I had the drone turned off so I don't think it was tuning beating between drone and tone. Reverb and Flange were off. More strangeness: with alternate mono mode on, slurring between C3 and D3 gives D3 an attack some of the time that it doesn't have normally.
Also - another demonstration of my lack of knowledge regarding these instruments in the real-world - are none of the instruments playable polyphonically, other than the drone? I know what a sitar looks like, and it certainly seems possible to play more than one note simultaneously, or is it possible but just not used in practice?
I'm no expert on the instrument, so maybe different ranges are supposed to have very different tones, but with D3 and after I get a much different tone than below with Bagpipe2 (not present on Bagpipe1). Also there sounds like some hi-freq artifacts with these notes - there is buzzing in the upper range and I'm pretty sure I had the drone turned off so I don't think it was tuning beating between drone and tone. Reverb and Flange were off. More strangeness: with alternate mono mode on, slurring between C3 and D3 gives D3 an attack some of the time that it doesn't have normally.
Also - another demonstration of my lack of knowledge regarding these instruments in the real-world - are none of the instruments playable polyphonically, other than the drone? I know what a sitar looks like, and it certainly seems possible to play more than one note simultaneously, or is it possible but just not used in practice?
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- DASH Guy
- 7951 posts since 20 Sep, 2001
Hello here some info and reply about the SoundSets currently avaliable in the EMM beta, some of them are just temporary:
-SitarGold: this is quite tuned but for A = 441 Hz, I will change it to 440
so now to tune it to other synth use FineTune knob
-SitarRaga: same as above
-Bouzuki: this is not a bouzuki sample since I didn't have it ready yet,
please don't care much about this SoundSet in the beta.
-Mbira1: again tuned at 441Hz diapason
-Kalimba1 and 2 : 441Hz diapason, and 2 is not a kalimba
-sine: this was for test purpose, but if you find it useful I may leave it there
-Bagpipe1: this is bad, basically another synthetic test tone I made before
I had the real Bagpipe samples
-Bagpipe2 : this is a multisampled real bagpipe, but I just built the SoundSet to test the tone, needs tuning of the upper sample
-Lira : this is a tiny metal harp, and should be tuned,
but I'm changing almost all SoudSets,
Advaced Beta status is referred to the synth not to the SoudSets
these are in alpha stage, <grin>
you can pick a better Bagpipe here
http://liqihsynth.com/12-Scottish.rar
-SitarGold: this is quite tuned but for A = 441 Hz, I will change it to 440
so now to tune it to other synth use FineTune knob
-SitarRaga: same as above
-Bouzuki: this is not a bouzuki sample since I didn't have it ready yet,
please don't care much about this SoundSet in the beta.
-Mbira1: again tuned at 441Hz diapason
-Kalimba1 and 2 : 441Hz diapason, and 2 is not a kalimba
-sine: this was for test purpose, but if you find it useful I may leave it there
-Bagpipe1: this is bad, basically another synthetic test tone I made before
I had the real Bagpipe samples
-Bagpipe2 : this is a multisampled real bagpipe, but I just built the SoundSet to test the tone, needs tuning of the upper sample
-Lira : this is a tiny metal harp, and should be tuned,
but I'm changing almost all SoudSets,
Advaced Beta status is referred to the synth not to the SoudSets
these are in alpha stage, <grin>
you can pick a better Bagpipe here
http://liqihsynth.com/12-Scottish.rar
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- DASH Guy
- 7951 posts since 20 Sep, 2001
tomorrow we'll release an update for almost all SoundSets, so stay tuned.
All things you wrote about SoundSets problems are correct, sorry
for the late info.
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About the Drone split point is "C0". Yes this is "wrong", but as soon as we have the first ready presets loaded, each presets will have its split point saved, and an eventually blank or Init preset will be splitted at C2.
***
Custom SoudSets creation is not possible currently, but we are planning
a kind of converter "Wav to DASHsnd"
***
to exaplain more features like the alternate mono mode , tomorrow
we also release a beta manual for EMM
***
floyd: yes the synth is monophonic, you can't play chords,
EMM is designed to work on single note melodies and to be easy playable
that way,
most of the ethnic instruments we will include in the SoundSets
are monophonic or are usually played as single note. The Sitar even with so many strings is always played as single note line against various drones. The real power of many ethnic instruments is the ability to produce a complex timbre on articulated melodic lines and with non standard intonation, I tried to capture that.
With some SoundSet I'm preparing EMM can be biphonic, by using the split
with Drone layer and having a second playble voice in the Drone zone,
this is useful for some intruments like balafon (african marimba)
All things you wrote about SoundSets problems are correct, sorry
for the late info.
***
About the Drone split point is "C0". Yes this is "wrong", but as soon as we have the first ready presets loaded, each presets will have its split point saved, and an eventually blank or Init preset will be splitted at C2.
***
Custom SoudSets creation is not possible currently, but we are planning
a kind of converter "Wav to DASHsnd"
***
to exaplain more features like the alternate mono mode , tomorrow
we also release a beta manual for EMM
***
floyd: yes the synth is monophonic, you can't play chords,
EMM is designed to work on single note melodies and to be easy playable
that way,
most of the ethnic instruments we will include in the SoundSets
are monophonic or are usually played as single note. The Sitar even with so many strings is always played as single note line against various drones. The real power of many ethnic instruments is the ability to produce a complex timbre on articulated melodic lines and with non standard intonation, I tried to capture that.
With some SoundSet I'm preparing EMM can be biphonic, by using the split
with Drone layer and having a second playble voice in the Drone zone,
this is useful for some intruments like balafon (african marimba)
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- KVRer
- 25 posts since 24 Nov, 2002
just got back from holiday guys. Thanks for the private message allerting me to the "new way". Will try really hard to get some good testing done in the next 2 days.
Buckskin
Buckskin
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
ok - brief 1st report [only preliminary testing since im still working through some tubilesax stuff - see the relevant thread]
but so - far - very stable in tracktion here - none of the issues we had with early betas of tubilesax [im guessing the engine is PRETTY similar in the 2 instruments] - easy to get to grips with and i love the concept [one of my all-time fave sync ensembles is 'scattering drone'
] - may well be off to buy a voucher once this thing starts to show its true colours
like i said - havent really spent much time with it yet - so these opening observations are pretty superficial and cosmetic [but might therefore be useful in terms of gauging what people will see when they 1st fire up the commercial demo]
- slightly too much 'highlighting' on the instruments title bar - the end of 'melodic' and the start of 'virtual' blend into the yellow background - the rest of the gui looks very good to me [much stronger than tubilesax imho] - except for -
- the font on the 'about' page is a nightmare !!! - i know what youre trying to do but imho from a grpahic design PoV it hasnt quite come off - too hard to read
- from a gui consistency PoV it would make more sense to have the little release tone button / light down in the bottom left of its panel like the flanger and reverb ones are
- would it be possible to have little sliders to adjust tone and pitch variation [as in tubilesax] rather than the drop-down boxes with only three choices - these just look a little clumsy and provide less tweakability i think [you could have one small horizintal slider either side of the 'master' title - or even move that over to the right and have both sliders to its left]
like i said - nothing earth-shattering [but i am visually trained and have a LITTLE experience designing gui] - but now you seem to have your new engine working well its the little touches that start to make the difference between someone who buys and someone who doesnt because the demo is a little quirky - the psychology of perception
will delve deeper once ive got tubilesax testing done with - but looking good
slainte
rob
but so - far - very stable in tracktion here - none of the issues we had with early betas of tubilesax [im guessing the engine is PRETTY similar in the 2 instruments] - easy to get to grips with and i love the concept [one of my all-time fave sync ensembles is 'scattering drone'
] - may well be off to buy a voucher once this thing starts to show its true colourslike i said - havent really spent much time with it yet - so these opening observations are pretty superficial and cosmetic [but might therefore be useful in terms of gauging what people will see when they 1st fire up the commercial demo]
- slightly too much 'highlighting' on the instruments title bar - the end of 'melodic' and the start of 'virtual' blend into the yellow background - the rest of the gui looks very good to me [much stronger than tubilesax imho] - except for -
- the font on the 'about' page is a nightmare !!! - i know what youre trying to do but imho from a grpahic design PoV it hasnt quite come off - too hard to read
- from a gui consistency PoV it would make more sense to have the little release tone button / light down in the bottom left of its panel like the flanger and reverb ones are
- would it be possible to have little sliders to adjust tone and pitch variation [as in tubilesax] rather than the drop-down boxes with only three choices - these just look a little clumsy and provide less tweakability i think [you could have one small horizintal slider either side of the 'master' title - or even move that over to the right and have both sliders to its left]
like i said - nothing earth-shattering [but i am visually trained and have a LITTLE experience designing gui] - but now you seem to have your new engine working well its the little touches that start to make the difference between someone who buys and someone who doesnt because the demo is a little quirky - the psychology of perception
will delve deeper once ive got tubilesax testing done with - but looking good
slainte
rob
Last edited by pHz on Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRer
- 8 posts since 2 Aug, 2003
tested on logic audio 5.5.1, no bugs so far.It seems stabile, no crashes, no freezing, sound quality ok, all knobs are fully functional-
- DASH Guy
- 7951 posts since 20 Sep, 2001
Thanks Rob for the deeo review:
yes but that section is shared, Tone and Envelope (Release),
the button is for Tone only, so I put it close the name to be clearer,
maybe I could change the color so that there will be less comparison with the effects below,
yes thanks, it's an idea, personally I prefer to have fixed positions than sliders for this feature, since they are a faster choice and in between values are not musically relevant, but I agree that they may look better in the GUI
thanks, get the updates http://liqihsynth.com/EMM_Knagalis/
yeah 'scattering drone' was the beginning! <grin>but so - far - very stable in tracktion here - none of the issues we had with early betas of tubilesax [im guessing the engine is PRETTY similar in the 2 instruments] - easy to get to grips with and i love the concept [one of my all-time fave sync ensembles is 'scattering drone'
ha ha, that was a William experiment, <grin> don't worry we'll change that before release- the font on the 'about' page is a nightmare !!! - i know what youre trying to do but imho from a grpahic design PoV it hasnt quite come off - too hard to read
- from a gui consistency PoV it would make more sense to have the little release tone button / light down in the bottom left of its panel like the flanger and reverb ones are
yes but that section is shared, Tone and Envelope (Release),
the button is for Tone only, so I put it close the name to be clearer,
maybe I could change the color so that there will be less comparison with the effects below,
- would it be possible to have little sliders to adjust tone and pitch variation [as in tubilesax] rather than the drop-down boxes with only three choices - these just look a little clumsy and provide less tweakability i think [you could have one small horizintal slider either side of the 'master' title - or even move that over to the right and have both sliders to its left]
yes thanks, it's an idea, personally I prefer to have fixed positions than sliders for this feature, since they are a faster choice and in between values are not musically relevant, but I agree that they may look better in the GUI
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- DASH Guy
- 7951 posts since 20 Sep, 2001
thanks Goblin for the report, we add the info to the list
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- KVRAF
- 2121 posts since 14 Jun, 2002 from Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Sorry I was out for a few days...summer house guest to take care of...
I like the new sound/repaired sounds...
The only issue I came across was in FL Studio and it may be a Fruity problem rather than a Dash problem...As before when cloning an instance while Fruity's playing the first instance temporarily goes out of pitch, but returns...no big deal...that's happened before, but then a third instance cloned sends the first permanently out of pitch and the third instance produces no sound...I know that normally people should stop playback, clone channels, then play again, but I don't always and I don't get the same issue with some other synths...So maybe it's not really a bug in the stricter sense of normal use...
Additionally, I just got my P5 installed too and she seems to work fine in the wrapper...
I like the new sound/repaired sounds...
The only issue I came across was in FL Studio and it may be a Fruity problem rather than a Dash problem...As before when cloning an instance while Fruity's playing the first instance temporarily goes out of pitch, but returns...no big deal...that's happened before, but then a third instance cloned sends the first permanently out of pitch and the third instance produces no sound...I know that normally people should stop playback, clone channels, then play again, but I don't always and I don't get the same issue with some other synths...So maybe it's not really a bug in the stricter sense of normal use...
Additionally, I just got my P5 installed too and she seems to work fine in the wrapper...
