The Big Guitar Amp Sim Roundup + Review

[Mats Eriksson]

I get that, but I'm not arguing with whether what you want is valuable or not. I'll never turn down an improvement when/if it arrives. I just want this thread to be about what we can do today, not what we may be able to do tomorrow. Until what you want exists, there's no way we can discuss in a practical way how to use that feature in our music, or compare amp sims that have it vs. those that don't (assuming you're correct that no manufacturer has attempted to model power amp behavior the way you would like to see it modeled).

It's all good, I just question whether it's appropriate for what this thread is trying to do - compare and contrast existing amp sims.

Well I think we can all make our wishes what todays amp sims lacks. Otherwise there's little use of evolving or development. As I said in my earier post about combining the "dynamics" button of the IR speaker by Kazrog called re-cabinet WITH their recent "true-iron" plugin. I made a suggestion which no one cared for.

What we can compare todays amp-sims is maybe which ones Fender Twin sounds best. Again, you hear something I don't, and I hear something you don't. Chances are that maybe some of the manufacturers are reading this, and sort of soaks it up like a sponge, and somewhere back in their minds, whenever technology/economy advances they'll go "hmmm... maybe we can do that request now".

As someone said earlier, by the time you're done with all the amp sims you've reviewed here, the first one you've reviewed have released at least two major versions upgrades since last time, so it's an never ending and never finishing job. All in all, interesting and intriguing, no doubt about that.

I have to repeat it again: I use both. Not favoring any one of them, but both have still their real uses, and aren't really interchangable. I mean real amps and amp sims. Christophe Kemper said that he always found something else to listen for, when he was done with some simulation. He thought that now he nailed it, but he went down in a bottomless rabbit hole since he always heard something that could be bettered. So he invented profiling instead. Made him at ease, slightly more.

[Anderton]

Well I think we can all make our wishes what todays amp sims lacks. Otherwise there's little use of evolving or development.

Of course, side discussions are welcome and helpful. However, there is also the question of how much to keep a thread on topic. To have one person do 26 posts on the same subject, with none of those posts about the topic itself (roundup and review of amp sims), is why I recommended starting a separate thread to help keep this thread focused.

[guitarzan]

If "off topic" is what's bothering you, then let me give you some context. I spent the better part of a decade rounding up and personally reviewing every amp sim I could find as part of an even longer quest that began with the first SR&D Rockman in the 80's — then proceeding to low watt padded down tube amps in the late 80's into the 90's (H&K half rack amps, MTI Tubes, power soaks, ADA Ampulator, etc), then to the first modelers in the late 90's (POD Pro, J Station, DG Stomp, all of them). Then to software and VSTs (I think my first was Guitar Rig). So far, only the padded down tube gear will produce usable vintage-style power amp overdrive dynamics at all volumes — period (and even this has it's issues, but I'm finding ways to deal).

Starting in 2005 or so I was involved in some way or other — alpha/beta tester, corresponding with anyone in the business I could whether software developer or grizzled tube tech, etc. — in more amp modeling projects than I can say (literally... NDAs and such). No software developer had the interest or wherewithal to model overdriven power amp dynamics. A couple started, but it always got shut down by those who seem to imply tube power amp overdrive is something akin to a myth. Anyone who has ever cranked up a vintage tweed knows better, but very few of those guys have any interest in amp modeling at all, because — catch 22 — modeled vintage amps suck. Some sound pretty good as far as they go, but they just don't react to picking dynamics and volume control right at all after a certain point.

You can't tell me that quantum entanglement can be modeled, but not the behavior of a smoking hot power amp from the 1950's. If everyone is satisfied with their weedy vintage amp models then that's one thing — but don't just say vintage power amp overdrive can't be modeled. That's the biggest reason it hasn't been done, and the only reason I posted here again.

REMINDER TO AMP MODELING DEVELOPERS — YOU'RE NOT FINISHED YET.

So that's it. If you don't reply saying it can't be done, then I'll have no reason to post here again. Deal?

[imrae]

I'm seeing a bit of inconsistency here between "amps and sims don't have to be the same, let's make new sounds" and "look how far the tech has come, these new sims feel great".

If all we want is a flexible tool for distorting and filtering then why use amp sims at all? Use Trash2, it's a much easier and more flexible interface for directly manipulating your waveshaping and filtering.

And the answer is that we like to use conventional guitar amp sounds because they are part of our musical history. There are conventions in how they are used that form part of the context in which we write and hear modern popular music. Performers have learned with amps and want a similar touch response, producers want something that mixes in a familiar way, and listeners want to subconsciously think "that's a normal funk guitar part, now focus on how the rhythm interacts with the drums". NIN have made some fantastic records with unconventional guitar distortion, and they sound intentionally unsettling and abrasive.

I also don't really accept the "if you want the sound of an amp, use a real amp" position. These plugins are explicitly marketed as an affordable and space-efficient way for studios to extend their amp collection. Small bands are expected to produce "radio-ready" demos that compete sonically with expensive equipment, and this technology is already helping them do that. Touring bands are using rack-mounted sims to save space and time while performing songs that were written for traditional amps. To claim that realism is not relevant for amp sims is to deny the way people are actually using them. Whether the current level of realism is sufficient is another matter; the world-class bands using Axe-FX and Kemper gear suggest that we are getting there.

[imrae]

You can't tell me that quantum entanglement can be modeled, but not the behavior of a smoking hot power amp from the 1950's.

Modelling physical properties based on quantum stuff is really challenging. We have to use a bunch of approximations to deal with more than a few particles, otherwise you quickly run into silly stuff like needing more memory than there are atoms in the universe.

[guitarzan]

You can't tell me that quantum entanglement can be modeled, but not the behavior of a smoking hot power amp from the 1950's.

Modelling physical properties based on quantum stuff is really challenging. We have to use a bunch of approximations to deal with more than a few particles, otherwise you quickly run into silly stuff like needing more memory than there are atoms in the universe.

Approximations are fine — great even! Bring on the tweed power amp overdrive approximations!

[Ryan_IK]

Yeah, who needs a little thing like power amp dynamics (the original source of rock 'n' roll) when you already have so much stunningly hyper realistic....uh.....stuff.

I mean, who really needs or even wants 3D, aren't two dimensions already more than enough for anyone?

Man, the future blows.

At IK Multimedia we do model Power Amp sag as well as the interaction between the Power Amp and the cabinet (our DIM technology - Dynamic Interaction Modeling). The sag can be easily observed with a test tone sent into AmpliTube.

As a reference for Vintage amps with the magic happening in the Power Amp, you can watch our Fender 2 Collection demoed by Greg Koch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Da5ldpwZ7M
In this video you can hear some smooth break up, some sag/compression and the "Daaaah... which is as it should be" as Greg technically points out. And it's all happening in the Power Amp, not in an early preamp clipper stage.

Hope this helps.

[reggie1979]

That was weird, clean up on Isle 5!

@Video, excellent marketing. I bought that straight away the first time watched it I think I use the Fender stuff the most but I use a Red Pig cab usually. Smoothest most versatile sounding cab imo.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Dammit Ryan, yes I hope it helps too - the first time!!! Definitely cleanup on aisle 5, sent him a note and of course had to add the ribbing here.

*IK nor Peter - IK Multimedia condone hazing in any way. But still. C'mon.

[guitarzan]

…
*IK nor Peter - IK Multimedia condone hazing in any way. But still. C'mon.

Corporate Goon alert... the bean counters are becoming concerned...

Some things never change.

EDIT: spelling... according to Peter the IK, the proper title is Corporate Goon. Sorry, my mistake.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

…
*IK nor Peter - IK Multimedia condone hazing in any way. But still. C'mon.

Corperate goon alert... the bean counters are becoming concerned...

Some things never change.

It was clearly a joke. Nobody is concerned, Ryan simply corrected a misunderstanding by pointing out what we do model and provided an example. Multiple times. Hence giving him a little crap for it.

Otherwise he's not wrong, and neither of us are goons. IK is made up of mostly musicians and not bean counters. Along with many of us having vast knowledge in certain areas of music (mine would be audio engineering and composition, my dual major at Berklee beyond being a more than passable guitarist among other musical skills) and noticing that your claims don't match what we do and you were posting so many times about it that it was time to finally clear that up.

And it's "corporate" just FYI.

[reggie1979]

KVRisms I've learned from being here:

-Peter takes a lot of crap. IK are the anti christ
-Slate is the anti christ..
-Subscriptions are the anti christ.
-PA is the anti christ.
-ilok are the anti christ
-Every thread devolves into a childish "no my way is better" p...s a thon.

I'm only bringing it up because I'd rather the IK people be around here a lot than ignoring us.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

KVRisms I've learned from being here:

-Peter takes a lot of crap. IK are the anti christ
-Slate is the anti christ..
-Subscriptions are the anti christ.
-PA is the anti christ.
-ilok are the anti christ
-Every thread devolves into a childish "no my way is better" p...s a thon.

I'm only bringing it up because I'd rather the IK people be around here a lot than ignoring us.

I've been here as Peter - IK Multimedia for almost 10 years now (with many thousands of posts as a regular helpful guy for a while before I applied and was hired on with IK Multimedia). I don't think I'm going anywhere even though I'm a manager here so Ryan will chime in - heavily in this case many times when I cannot, especially when there's misinformation to clean up. IK takes pride in its modeling and will continue to make sure the correct information is posted. I think it was generous of us to let so many posts containing said misinformation to occur before officially correcting them. I believe in giving people chances to admit they're wrong. Didn't happen here, though, even though others noticed this agenda or whatever it might be at its core.

This thread has devolved enough, though, we made our official correction and this is Craig's thread (and has covered many amp sims after AmpliTube was posted about) so I'll let him weigh in be it silently or not as he and the KVR gods wish.

[Anderton]

Well the KVR gods won't tell me what to do, and I'm happy to weigh in.

First, manufacturers are WELCOME here. I thought it was great when Blue Cat came in said "hey, we'll be happy to send you an NFR, please feel free to check out Axiom." I hope they comment on my review when it appears. I've invited the other companies to comment as well if they wanted.

IK has a lot of expertise, and sharing that is to our advantage. To consider IK as being filled with corporate beancounters is fiction, and this is supposed to be a non-fiction thread. Talk to them at a trade show, and you'll find out where their passions are. Actually, the same can be said of ANY of these amp sim companies. You don't get rich in this business. People are in it because they love it. That includes me. All the "get rich quick" people are gone after a year, once they find out they can't get rich quick.

As I pointed out, 26 posts designed solely to advance a personal agenda contribute nothing to a thread. I would feel the same way if someone said "My favorite amp is the Blurflepony X123 that was made in 1968. Somebody needs to model it!! No one has even attempted to model it!!" and then says the same thing another 25 times. Enough. Furthermore, there was absolutely no proof that companies were/are not trying to model output stages of power amps and clearly, if you look at amp sims, companies are trying to do just that. Whether it's to someone's satisfaction is a completely different topic, and that needs to be made clear as opposed to a blanket statement that is demonstrably not true.

[Anderton]

I also don't really accept the "if you want the sound of an amp, use a real amp" position.

I've found that's the only answer for people who insist that amp sims are unacceptable. Then they won't go on and on about why they don't like amp sims.

These plugins are explicitly marketed as an affordable and space-efficient way for studios to extend their amp collection. Small bands are expected to produce "radio-ready" demos that compete sonically with expensive equipment, and this technology is already helping them do that. Touring bands are using rack-mounted sims to save space and time while performing songs that were written for traditional amps. To claim that realism is not relevant for amp sims is to deny the way people are actually using them. Whether the current level of realism is sufficient is another matter; the world-class bands using Axe-FX and Kemper gear suggest that we are getting there.

Excellent points. What's great to me about amp sims is that their realism has developed tremendously (and will continue to do so), while they simultaneously extend what guitar processing can do by taking it into territories that are inaccessible to physical amps.

At the risk of upsetting a lot of people (not directed at you, I think you have your head screwed on straight)...I've spent a lot of time in forums, in fact my Craig Anderton's Sound, Studio, and Stage forum has been running consecutively for 24 years. Interestingly, I've noticed that the people who complain the most about how gear sucks generally don't have links to any of their music. I believe some of the more ardent complainers blame their lack of musical success on supposed inadequacies of the gear. Yet gear is not the most important aspect of music. If you gave Jeff Beck the cheapest amp and guitar in a music store, and he'd still sound like Jeff Beck.

I use amp sims and make no excuses for my music. If you don't like my music, it's not because I use amp sims. If you do like my music, it's not because I use amp sims

On with the show.