All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

Interactive, forum-based, in-depth reviews, tips, tutorials and more!
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WasteLand
KVRAF
2218 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:57 am

Cinebient wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:40 am
I wonder when we see first things about the mystic midi 2.0 in terms of expression.
me too. but when will the first controllers/keyboards will come, or will they update existing controllers.

in mean time, is Rob Papen Blade 2 already mentioned as very capable MPE synth?
i have it, for a few days, works perfectly with MPE (and X Y pad, lightpad M/rise).
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

SteinyFritz
KVRist
40 posts since 5 Feb, 2021

Post Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:11 am

The current availability of mpe synths is such a pleasure when you’ve owned an MPE controller for a few years. Just a couple of years ago there weren’t more than a handful of viable synths available.

jules99
KVRist
70 posts since 15 Jun, 2018

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:43 pm

I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11. Compared to Logic, for example the implementation of both MPE editing and MPE modulation is much deeper. As Bitwig is moving more into focus for many sound designers, I'd love to find out more not only about the possibilities, but the workflow. The more I work with MPE in Wavetable and Simpler or modulate effects parameters through mappings with Expression Control the more I'm sure we've only scratched the surface.

Now that the lid that was Live is finally blown off, I'm really hoping for new controllers, new instruments, even new effects that really highlight the possibilities. Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?

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aMUSEd
KVRAF
33062 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:48 pm

Hope Operator gets the MPE functionality too though - strange ommision

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20880 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:06 pm

jules99 wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:43 pm
I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11. Compared to Logic, for example the implementation of both MPE editing and MPE modulation is much deeper. As Bitwig is moving more into focus for many sound designers, I'd love to find out more not only about the possibilities, but the workflow. The more I work with MPE in Wavetable and Simpler or modulate effects parameters through mappings with Expression Control the more I'm sure we've only scratched the surface.

Now that the lid that was Live is finally blown off, I'm really hoping for new controllers, new instruments, even new effects that really highlight the possibilities. Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Live is not yet recording the midi channel of each note, so the MPE implementation is incomplete.

jules99
KVRist
70 posts since 15 Jun, 2018

Post Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:41 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:06 pm
jules99 wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:43 pm
I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11. Compared to Logic, for example the implementation of both MPE editing and MPE modulation is much deeper. As Bitwig is moving more into focus for many sound designers, I'd love to find out more not only about the possibilities, but the workflow. The more I work with MPE in Wavetable and Simpler or modulate effects parameters through mappings with Expression Control the more I'm sure we've only scratched the surface.

Now that the lid that was Live is finally blown off, I'm really hoping for new controllers, new instruments, even new effects that really highlight the possibilities. Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Live is not yet recording the midi channel of each note, so the MPE implementation is incomplete.
Technically speaking it has to, otherwise MPE would not be functioning, right?

But you're absolutely right in that the display of the MIDI channels per MPE note is not there, making it incomplete.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20880 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:48 am

jules99 wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:41 am
pdxindy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:06 pm
jules99 wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:43 pm
I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11. Compared to Logic, for example the implementation of both MPE editing and MPE modulation is much deeper. As Bitwig is moving more into focus for many sound designers, I'd love to find out more not only about the possibilities, but the workflow. The more I work with MPE in Wavetable and Simpler or modulate effects parameters through mappings with Expression Control the more I'm sure we've only scratched the surface.

Now that the lid that was Live is finally blown off, I'm really hoping for new controllers, new instruments, even new effects that really highlight the possibilities. Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Live is not yet recording the midi channel of each note, so the MPE implementation is incomplete.
Technically speaking it has to, otherwise MPE would not be functioning, right?

But you're absolutely right in that the display of the MIDI channels per MPE note is not there, making it incomplete.
No, it doesn't have to.

What I understand it is doing is ignoring the midi channel (live has never recorded midi channel data) and then it is doing an automatic round robin playback across 16 channel (or maybe 15 plus master channel?).

This will not work then for something like my Elektron Analog Four which only receives 4 channels for the 4 voices. I can easily configure on the fly, my Linnstrument to send just channels 1-4. Live though, will record those notes without the actual midi channel that the original note has and then auto distribute across the 16 channels and a bunch of notes wont play on the A4. Currently there is no facility to manually limit the channel range in Live.

It also doesn't work for the guitar like Channel Per Row mode of the Linnstrument. That depends on the notes retaining the specific channel they started with instead of being reassigned a round robin channel.

Bitwig was doing the same thing initially, but enough of us complained that Bitwig added full midi channel support which is what Live needs.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
6539 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:32 am

If the original channel assignment is ignored, playing bisbigliando will be broken (playing the same note overlapping), as the information to which note the next note off belongs is lost! It would make one of my most beloved playing techniques unusable. Keyboard players don’t get that, as you can’t play a bisbigliando on a piano... String and guitar players can play the same pitch on different strings...

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WasteLand
KVRAF
2218 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:41 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:32 am
If the original channel assignment is ignored, playing bisbigliando will be broken (playing the same note overlapping), as the information to which note the next note off belongs is lost! It would make one of my most beloved playing techniques unusable. Keyboard players don’t get that, as you can’t play a bisbigliando on a piano... String and guitar players can play the same pitch on different strings...
aha, that is why it sometimes works, or not. thanks, for the info.
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

FriskyRingo
KVRer
8 posts since 13 Mar, 2021

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:27 am

Is anyone using the Polyend Medusa as an MPE controller? Would love to hear any opinions. Didn't see it mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Dasheesh
KVRAF
4730 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Post Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:13 pm

i will buy an mpe controller, because i'm being forced to use it, but, i was trained and learned on polypressure, which is just as good. keyboards rule.

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
11532 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:34 pm

Dasheesh wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:13 pm
i will buy an mpe controller, because i'm being forced to use it, but, i was trained and learned on polypressure, which is just as good. keyboards rule.
Who’s forcing you to use an MPE controller? Some sort of supervillain hell bent on bringing more expression into music?

BTW, Expressive E is working on trying to release their Osmose synth, which is something they’re calling MPE+, but I believe it will operate as an MPE and polyphonic aftertouch keyboard as well. Looks beautiful. I hear it’s been delayed like many things this year, but I hope it’s readily available at some point. My GEM S2 is aging, and while it feels amazing I don’t want to have it go belly up on me one day with nothing on the market to replace it. I hope they do a 61 key version.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Satchiemusicprod
KVRer
7 posts since 19 Mar, 2021

Post Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:10 pm

FriskyRingo wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:27 am
Is anyone using the Polyend Medusa as an MPE controller? Would love to hear any opinions. Didn't see it mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
No problemo, i use the medusa with UVI (free carbon MPE package) .
https://polyend.com/whats-up/medusa-carbon-synth/

FriskyRingo
KVRer
8 posts since 13 Mar, 2021

Post Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:18 am

Cool must check that out! Coincidentally, a package arrived at the door this morning, lo and behold, my girlfriend got me the Medusa as a birthday present 🎁🥳

Still wrapping my head around all the possibilities with this Synth and MPE 🤯

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Niowiad
KVRian
968 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:15 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:34 pm
Dasheesh wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:13 pm
i will buy an mpe controller, because i'm being forced to use it, but, i was trained and learned on polypressure, which is just as good. keyboards rule.
Who’s forcing you to use an MPE controller? Some sort of supervillain hell bent on bringing more expression into music?

BTW, Expressive E is working on trying to release their Osmose synth, which is something they’re calling MPE+, but I believe it will operate as an MPE and polyphonic aftertouch keyboard as well. Looks beautiful. I hear it’s been delayed like many things this year, but I hope it’s readily available at some point. My GEM S2 is aging, and while it feels amazing I don’t want to have it go belly up on me one day with nothing on the market to replace it. I hope they do a 61 key version.
This is all we know, at the moment.
https://expressivee.happyfox.com/kb/art ... n-49-keys/

I discarded the intro offer (which was an insane discount) because I wasn't fully sold on the 4 octave range. I got to reconsider and regret that, now seriously thinking of getting it anyway after it's out and heavily tested/reviewed.

But if I shell out 1800€ and they make a 61 key version after a year (maybe even just as a controller, without the sound engine and at a lower price), I'm going to jump off a cliff.

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