PC/Mac based amp sims live/on stage--Please share your knowledge!

[debra1rlo]

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[transmisser]

I was recently helping my friend set up Helix Native with Ableton Live for his live set. It just mainly came down to mapping his external midi controller to specific functions within Helix Native, and that was pretty straightforward. I don't know what your specific use case would be, but latency would be my biggest worry (depending on how you would be running the amp sim on your computer).

How was the latency in your friend's set up? What hardware was he/she using?

I don't have exact figures, but not too bad overall. He's using a UAD Apollo with a MacBook Pro, so he has a bit of an edge in terms of extra processing power + a thunderbolt connection. Generally the less plugins he uses, the better for lower latency.

[tapper mike]

I'm far from a Luddite nonetheless I'd never use a software plugin that requires a computer for the stage.

1. There are plenty of multi-effects processors and amps on the market that do a reasonable job of emulating all the sounds I need. You will never need 90 amp sims to get through a show. If you spend an exceeding amount of time programming you may actually never perform or record anything. The point of playing music is to play music

2. Tone is in your hands. If you play well it won't matter to the audience whether you are going through a Marshall, Markley, Friedman. Even if the sound isn't exact so long as the playing is credible the audience will listen to the music.

3. Stealibility.
That laptop, tablet, smartphone may have your entire life on it. Your account passwords etc. Most fingerprint scanners are useless. The fact that it's small and portable even if it has a low resell value makes it ideal for an everyday idiot who thinks it's funny to steal things.

If you think your stuff is safe onstage and the bouncers are looking out for you. Think again. Among the many ways gear has been taken from me on one occasion two guys got into a fight during a break just to act as a distraction while the third guy made a mad dash for the stage. It doesn't matter the resale value what matters more is the "thrill" I've seen girls happy as kittens because they stole wine glasses and put them in their purses.

[Ploki]

I'm far from a Luddite nonetheless I'd never use a software plugin that requires a computer for the stage.

1. There are plenty of multi-effects processors and amps on the market that do a reasonable job of emulating all the sounds I need. You will never need 90 amp sims to get through a show. If you spend an exceeding amount of time programming you may actually never perform or record anything. The point of playing music is to play music

2. Tone is in your hands. If you play well it won't matter to the audience whether you are going through a Marshall, Markley, Friedman. Even if the sound isn't exact so long as the playing is credible the audience will listen to the music.

3. Stealibility.
That laptop, tablet, smartphone may have your entire life on it. Your account passwords etc. Most fingerprint scanners are useless. The fact that it's small and portable even if it has a low resell value makes it ideal for an everyday idiot who thinks it's funny to steal things.

If you think your stuff is safe onstage and the bouncers are looking out for you. Think again. Among the many ways gear has been taken from me on one occasion two guys got into a fight during a break just to act as a distraction while the third guy made a mad dash for the stage. It doesn't matter the resale value what matters more is the "thrill" I've seen girls happy as kittens because they stole wine glasses and put them in their purses.

not too far from a luddite tho.

I do it for a bass, but anyway, would do it the same for guitar (that i used to play):

1. I use a two models for a show. I use plugins i use daily in studio, so i don't spend that much on prepping something. It works fine, because i work with it daily and i know how it behaves.

2. Because we have some preprogrammed tempo-synced shit, all my sound changes are preprogrammed as well. I can focus on playing. I don't have a single pedal. My personal experience on stage has improved x5 since i stopped pedal-dancing. (non-tempo synced stuff is just a simple patch, i could assign it to a footswitch to change sounds, or map a knob controller to do some "amping")

3. if you're smart, you have a backup. If you're not, you're likely going to get f**ked with "your whole life" in another way - hardware failure for example...
Macs since 2018 are also encrypted by default. Also, the 13" I use is the first thing I pack into my backpack and keep with me.
You also have a separate partition for gigging that doesn't have all my shit on it.

Heck, you could even go as far as buying a dedicated stage rig. It costs less than a boutique guitar/amp. (my 13" costs less than my Mesa Boogie Mark V did). A 6-core Mac Mini for live will set you back a grand. You install the essentials and back a very small system on a thumb drive. Even if its stolen, you can be up and running faster than you can replace your tube amp.

Also, BIAS now has a hardware "AMP" that runs their software? So you can copy your plugin rig to hardware?

[debra1rlo]

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[audiojunkie]

Very interesting ideas everyone! I think if I were to go the laptop route, I would use an ATA travel case with dedicated hardware mounted into the case: ie a dedicated laptop and interface, with power conditioner--pop the lid, plug in, and go. I also think I would use a hardware midi controller to change presets, banks, etc. As far as stability, I personally have seldom (if ever) seen a crash (unless it was hardware caused) when working with music, so I'm not so worried about that. Nevertheless, I have see hardware failures. I think I would also have a backup set (possibly from an MP3 player or something) with backing tracks. I also think I would have a very cheap small guitar multi effects pedal (like a Zoom G1on) or something small with just the basics on it. I like the cart idea a lot, so I'd probably get a cart like the Rock-n-roller Multi-cart. I'm trying to do away with amps and go direct, so I might somehow fit a small mixer into the ATA case as well. It sounds like it would be a viable way to get things done. So, I wonder if it's any cheaper to go this route than to go the hardware route. It definitely sounds like it may be easier on my back if I don't have to lift and carry tons of weight. I also wonder if there are any benefits to it versus hardware. One thing that I can think of, is that with software, I can do what a gigantic pedalboard still wouldn't be able to do--have every possible customizable effect plugin known to man available for audio manipulation and mangling.

[Masanix]

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Hello,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was wondering to go in the same direction (amp sim on stage).

Instead to use a laptop I would use this conf:

• NUC mini PC with SSD HDD (no mechanical components and faster) with USB-C

• External Sound Card USB-C and MIDI port (USB-C is important for speed connection)

• MIDI Pedal controller

• An android pad to mirror the Windows desktop to the Phone/PAD

And of course (to mention what has been said):

• A regular backup

• an optimized Windows to have a low latency and stable performances

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-o ... ime-audio/ (https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-of-the-day/how-to-optimize-a-windows-laptop-for-low-latency-real-time-audio/)

Ciao
Gio

[Ploki]

USB-C data can be:
USB2.0 - 0.5 GBPS
USB3.0 - 5 GBPS
USB3.1 gen1 - 5 GPBS
USB3.1 gen2 x1 - 5 GBPS
USB3.1 gen2 x2 - 5 GBPS
USB3.2 gen1 x1 - 5 GBPS
USB3.2 gen1 x2 - 10 GBPS
USB3.2 gen2 x1 - 10 GBPS
USB3.2 gen2 x2 - 20 GBPS
Thunderbolt3 - 40 GBPS


Thunderbolt3 ports should support all the listed USB-C standards.
So USB-C by itself doesn't really say anything.

[Masanix]

Ploki,

Thanks for your list.

In the the recent Sound Card the default protocol used over the USB-C connector is USB 3.1
Maybe USB 3.0 but never less than this.

Hope it is more clear now.

[Ploki]

There isn't much difference between them tho - 5GBPS is enough throughput and thunderbolt3 (also available on PCs) by the rule of thumb will give better round trip latency.

Hell, RME even brought USB2.0 latency down to basically firewire levels.
So more than USB-C, check what kind of drivers the manufacturer provides and what kind of round trip it provides.

I personally wouldn't go live with anything else than RME, but i'm tainted

[audiojunkie]

Hello,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was wondering to go in the same direction (amp sim on stage).

Instead to use a laptop I would use this conf:

• NUC mini PC with SSD HDD (no mechanical components and faster) with USB-C

• External Sound Card USB-C and MIDI port (USB-C is important for speed connection)

• MIDI Pedal controller

• An android pad to mirror the Windows desktop to the Phone/PAD

And of course (to mention what has been said):

• A regular backup

• an optimized Windows to have a low latency and stable performances

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-o ... ime-audio/

Ciao
Gio

One of the reasons I was planning on using a laptop (even though I actually have a NUC available), is that if the power were to drop momentarily, the system would need to be rebooted, whereas a laptop would have it's battery to act almost as a backup.

[Masanix]

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.

Right

I was thinking the same until I found this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YP823NA/?t ... inutiae-20 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YP823NA/?tag=theminutiae-20) or less. In any case it is only needed when there is a power drop.

My preference goes to the NUC, IMO less fragile than a laptop.

[audiojunkie]

Right

I was thinking the same until I found this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YP823NA/?t ... inutiae-20 or less. In any case it is only needed when there is a power drop.

My preference goes to the NUC, IMO less fragile than a laptop.

Interesting! That thing packs a lot of power!! I bet I could run my phone off that for a week! Can the NUC continuously get its power from that? Maybe that could replace a power conditioner (as far as protecting the NUC by isolating it from the AC circuit). I like that there are options available. This is an interesting one!

[telecode]

I think technically is possible. But all depends how much you are into setting up on stage. You are basically going to be setting up a computer setup on stage. Lots of cables, power adapters, extensions, what not.. Possibly in a darkened. Possibly wet environment. Lots of other electrical equipment on there. Lots of opportunity to trip over stuff. Knock stuff over. Just get a Kemper or Iridium. One device. Plug and go.

[Ploki]

I think technically is possible. But all depends how much you are into setting up on stage. You are basically going to be setting up a computer setup on stage. Lots of cables, power adapters, extensions, what not.. Possibly in a darkened. Possibly wet environment. Lots of other electrical equipment on there. Lots of opportunity to trip over stuff. Knock stuff over. Just get a Kemper or Iridium. One device. Plug and go.

There's so many people performing with laptops/computers these days, that's just irrational...