VST3 - known issues (Updated Jan 2019)

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Ouch, so you're company six I know that pulls VST3 plugins.
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Compyfox wrote:Ouch, so you're company six I know that pulls VST3 plugins.
Really? Who are the others? :-o

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First and foremost, VoS/TDL (Variety of Sound/Tokyo Dawn Labs). There was a VST3 version in beta state (even a release candicate) that was pulled at the last minute.

I know for a fact, that due to the extending issues with the VST3 technology, both Eiosis and Slate Digital are major pissed (since they have showstopping issues - especially in Wavelab - and Steinberg disregards this as issue). Then we have Klanghelm, who also slowly thinks "not worth it for Steinberg hosts". Most of these issues resolve around GUI bugs, recall issues (recall of settings on the GUI), graphic glitches, and in Wavelab the so called Audio Forward bug (audio is not being processed while rendering, no matter if host is switched to "run as admin" or not), plugins that don't reload on project reload (also a Wavelab issue), etc.

Then we just need to take a dive into the DSP section in here on KVR, and read the negative critism towards VST3. I recently read at the Steinberg boards, that an update of Izotope Ozone causes issues in the VST3 realm (again for Wavelab) - yet only this issue is looked in to - everything else is not...

Now you announced that you pretty much pull the VST3 version from now on.

The list goes on.



The funny thing is...
If there is an issue with the VST3 implementation, most other host developers listen and try to create a workaround (Cakewalk and Presonus come to mind), with emphasis on workaround which shouldn't be there in the first place, while others clearly give a sh*t (the creators of the VST standard in the first place come to mind).


Just a beta tester's viewpoint.
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Well, I don't see anyone "pulling" VST3 in the sense of having had an official release and then dropping support afterwards.

We just for now encourage new users to stick to VST2 while we provide "best as we can" VST3 support for those who need it. Thing is, as far as we know, our VST3s work well in Cubase and Studio One (which were pretty much the only hosts we had when we developed VST3 support). Then we got hold of Wavelab where VST3 support is seriously odd, and we got SaviHost, Sonar, FL Studio and probably some more. In pretty much all of the newer hosts we see gradually more glitches, crashes and problems. Had we had all those hosts when we started VST3 support, we would probably have used the "simplified VST3" from the get go. Unfortunately we didn't and thus the majority of problems occurred within the year after their release.

Apart from the things mentioned often, we have identified a number of conceptual issues with VST3 that we are going to communicate to Steinberg. There may be a good chance that these issues get addressed and then we can go back to pick VST3 up again.

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I wouldn't bet on it, Urs.


The people I mentioned also reverted to a more "simplified VST3" and it didn't really fix their issues. Especially not in Wavelab. And Wavelab along with Cubendo are the forerunners of that technology for funks sake!

So what these people do is to still release VST3 versions, but say "we're sorry - we can't fix it for this and that host, since this and that host doesn't stick to the rules" (Slate Digital) - which is a huge negative backlash for these companies. In case of VoS/TDL, they realized in the beta (I was in charge of additional Steinberg tests) "it's not worth it, so we don't even release it".


You can't imagine for how long these companies talk with Steinberg now. And the only things they are getting as response are basically: "you funked up - you didn't stick to the specs of the standard".

Currently, the VST3 SDK should be at v3.5 IIRC. But again, what does it help if the hosts don't interpret these standards correctly? Especially those by the creators of the standard. I mean... the VST3 issues are known since Wavelab 7 - in June comes WL8.5 (paid update)!



Thankfully enough - SATIN was spared of most of that drama. I unfortunately don't have any other tool from your house. So I can't really tell what the funk is going on otherwise (in Wavelab especially, your plugin range - not your VSTi).

But I do have a feeling that two things will happen with upcoming versions of Cubendo/Wavelab: a drop of the 32bit technology (x64 DAWs are pretty much the norm now - Logic already dropped 32bit - and Steinberg hinted at me several times that "x64 is the future"), maybe in 2015 also a drop of the VST2 standard loading capabilities (though VST3 is thankfully backards compatible, IIRC - but it's a different file ending) and/or maybe an introduction of VST v4.

At least this is what I'm getting out of all this. And as Steinberg user, this is highly annoying. Especially if you have to pay for bugfixes (v.5 versions of their hosts).
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So why not send a might flip off to Steinberg and use a different DAW then :D

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Yeah :)
Go for it!!
:)
Rsp
sound sculptist

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Unfortunately, that is not an option for a lot of people (before this is going into another mud fest).


Wavelab is still considered one of the best (if not the best) mastering and CD authoring tool on the market. The next update (v8.5, paid) get's an integration of the Fraunhofer ProCodec on top of the already implemented EBU R128 Analysis and Loudness Normalisation schemes. Amongst other things - and v9 is rumored to have better automation and (which is my hope) maybe even proper multi track recording. Which would make it an alternative to full scale multi track hosts.

The main issue is the VST3 interpretation - and PG still disregards this as an issue.
(there are several threads on the Steinberg boards about this)


Then there is Cubase/Nuendo... still a big player in the MIDI market (Cubase) and Movie Market (dubbing, surround mixes, etc). But Cubendo also doesn't stick 100% to their own standards. Here the most known issues are GUI issues, CPU spikes or general higher load with VST3 (general consensus by Steinberg: "the 3rd party devs didn't optimize enough"), you know the critism with the ASIO engine (which is a host problem, not necessarily VST3 one), the list goes on.


Switching to another host would maybe ease the problem, but it doesn't completely vanish (not to mention that you have to relearn a host). Another thing I know (and constantly hear) from beta testing: what works in Cubase, doesn't necessarily work in S1. If there is a fix for S1, then it doesn't work in Cubase anymore. And those that know the history of S1, know that half of the Presonus stuff coded Cubase SX. Yet their VST3 usability seems to be better than Steinberg's.

Add to that the massive critism about the VST3 SDK in the Dev section here on KVR, and you can nothing but wonder what is the real issue here.




With that said, and to go back on topic - I am not the least surprised that even U-HE is saying "VST3 good and fine, but we temporarily drop VST3 support".

Tells me that it's definitely not the 3rd party dev's fault in this case.
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Urs wrote:Well, I don't see anyone "pulling" VST3 in the sense of having had an official release and then dropping support afterwards.

We just for now encourage new users to stick to VST2 while we provide "best as we can" VST3 support for those who need it. Thing is, as far as we know, our VST3s work well in Cubase and Studio One (which were pretty much the only hosts we had when we developed VST3 support). Then we got hold of Wavelab where VST3 support is seriously odd, and we got SaviHost, Sonar, FL Studio and probably some more. In pretty much all of the newer hosts we see gradually more glitches, crashes and problems. Had we had all those hosts when we started VST3 support, we would probably have used the "simplified VST3" from the get go. Unfortunately we didn't and thus the majority of problems occurred within the year after their release.

Apart from the things mentioned often, we have identified a number of conceptual issues with VST3 that we are going to communicate to Steinberg. There may be a good chance that these issues get addressed and then we can go back to pick VST3 up again
.
Now, that is an encouraging read; do you fancy quickly polling other 3rd party devs that you know, with your ideas/potential solutions before approaching SB..? Get the other devs views/approvals and then maybe you'll have a little more 'ammo' under your belt as it were...? :wink:
I mean, we're talking universal VST3 concepts here, not any private intellectual property. Talks can stay at a high level...

Just a thought or two,
thebutler
Win10; i7 4790K; 16Gb RAM; GTX750Ti; Cubase Pro v12.0.70; WaveLab Pro v11.2.0; S1 v5.5.2; UR44 audio/MIDI

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thebutler wrote:
Urs wrote:
Apart from the things mentioned often, we have identified a number of conceptual issues with VST3 that we are going to communicate to Steinberg. There may be a good chance that these issues get addressed and then we can go back to pick VST3 up again
.
Now, that is an encouraging read; do you fancy quickly polling other 3rd party devs that you know, with your ideas/potential solutions before approaching SB..? Get the other devs views/approvals and then maybe you'll have a little more 'ammo' under your belt as it were...? :wink:
I mean, we're talking universal VST3 concepts here, not any private intellectual property. Talks can stay at a high level...

Just a thought or two,
thebutler
Hmmm, I don't really think this is a good idea. The things I have in mind are of a very general nature and I'm almost sure that they've been communicated before. In some cases I rather need some clarification before I'd issue this as a problem.

An example: VST3 plug-ins process parameter changes right when they are passed a buffer of samples to process. Thusly, no samples to process, no parameter changes evaluated. Such that, if a plug-in wasn't processed for a while (idle, bypassed whatsoever), and it gets woken up for processing new samples, it may need to process a gazillion tweaks from user interaction or automation, all at once. we have seen this result in an audible click and huge spikes in CPU consumption. In worst case this amy lead to something like a noise burst.

This may however be a host specific issue. Maybe VST3 plug-ins are meant to process samples whenever the user tweaks a knob while they're idle. I don't know, and I can't perform an exegesis on the documentation. Hence I'd rather approach SB with such an issue directly and see what they think before I involve "public muscle" :)

I just need to find the time to write all of these down… one day...

- Urs

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Ok - nice of you to explain a little more Urs, thanks. Understood.

thebutler
Win10; i7 4790K; 16Gb RAM; GTX750Ti; Cubase Pro v12.0.70; WaveLab Pro v11.2.0; S1 v5.5.2; UR44 audio/MIDI

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I think this was the main idea behind the VST3 standard:

Steinberg (back in the days) said that it's a revolution to have a plugin loaded, but if there is no signal applied (read - the plugins don't process), then it's unloaded from both RAM and the ASIO engine.

Reactivating it can result in both CPU spikes and noise bursts. Depending on how well this was implemented in the host, or programmed into the plugin - it's barely noticable.


Most recent VST3 creations however, and especially Cubase 7, reveal that this resuts in sometimes drastic spikes - nuking the ASIO engine. I can't be sure, but I think this was also somewhat the reason why they created the ASIO guard system.
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Hey guys, what about a crowdfounding campaign to finance an open standard VST alternative involving the best developers?

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I think a better documentation of the VST3 SDK would already solve A LOT of issues, that and maybe contacting the top devs on the market to involve them with the creation of the VST4 SDK.

Both is currently highly unlikely to happen. Unless I'm proven wrong.
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Not a problem with any Vst3 plugin inside Cubase 7 or Studio One 2.6 here, no matter what Asio Configuration, as Urs said.
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig."

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