Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

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nichttuntun
KVRian
532 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 am

Can't answer in detail yet. I think a wavetable playback isn't much of a difference in many synth. The magic occurs when it comes to modulate them and interact with multiple parameters. I only know HIVE without the wavetable feature.

Now I only can say that Icarus for example is a beast when it comes to wavetable scanning and morphing and manipulating one wavetable with another (plus FM and many many more manipulation features). The possibilities there for shaping the sound further are tremendous.

As a HIVE owner I am curious to learn how it will be in HIVE and wish all the best for the development. Cheers.


Ps. It's always exiting when U-HE is coming up with something new :)

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fmr
KVRAF
8441 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:01 am
nichttuntun wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:00 am
To have the option of Wave-Tabling is always great. Of course there are very specialized VSTs out which just concentrate on these great technique like the PPG stuff, Waldorf stuff, ICARUS and many more. But I also think it will be a great addition for HIVE and some users will very much appreciate that feature. Cheers.
What are the differences between Hive and such a specialized VST? Is there a general property or feature which these have that Hive doesn't?
There are two things that come to my mind right away, but I wouldn't mind very much:

1. Hive reads the wavetables in a very "synthetic" way (as you know, I have many sample based wavetables, and when I load them in Hive, it seems that Hive ignores the more "noisy" components of the wavetable (inharmonic partials, maybe?), and just keeps the harmonic partials, whch makes the playback more "synthetic".

2. Hive lacks a wavetable editor, like what we have in Serum or Icarus (or HALion, but HALion is a sampler, so, its in a different place, I guess).

OTOH, we have the scripting language which (for those that can, which unfortunately is not my case, at least for the time being) allow them to come up with very good wavetables (but still more synthetic oriented, though).

And the fact that Hive plays back the wavetables in a more synthetic way allows me to create some very specific sounds with the same wavetables, that I couldn't achieve in the other wavetable based synths.

As I said before, there isn't a "correct" way of doing wavetable synthesis, as there isn't a "correct" way of performing sample playback synthesis. Hive has a sound of its own, and I think that's good.
Fernando (FMR)

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Urs
u-he
23264 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am

fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 am
just keeps the harmonic partials, whch makes the playback more "synthetic".
That's a property of wavetable synthesis. It's the same in Serum and Icarus.
2. Hive lacks a wavetable editor
So do many classic "specialized" wavetable synthesizers by Waldorf, PPG, Native Instruments, Waves. I do not see how Hive is a lesser wavetable synthesizer than these in respect of "being a wavetable synthesizer". Some of these can't even load external wavetables, or only in very limited quality.

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Urs
u-he
23264 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am

nichttuntun wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 am
Now I only can say that Icarus for example is a beast when it comes to wavetable scanning and morphing and manipulating one wavetable with another (plus FM and many many more manipulation features). The possibilities there for shaping the sound further are tremendous.
I totally agree. But then, this isn't a particularly common thing among wavetable synthesizers. If you set the bar with editors like Serum and Icarus have, you also need to point out that Largo, Massive, Codex etc. do not reach that bar.

nichttuntun
KVRian
532 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:37 am

Hi Yes,
I think they are all very cool on their own and I try to see every instrument as for what it is without comparing too much, as long as this is possible.

To have a wavetable editor of course is great. Like in PREDATOR or MSoundfactory or WAVEGENERATOR, which unfortunately uses its own format and the wavetables can't be imported to other synth :(

As I understood the wavetable editor of ZEBRA can be used with HIVE. Cool thing :)

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fmr
KVRAF
8441 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:38 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am
fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 am
just keeps the harmonic partials, whch makes the playback more "synthetic".
That's a property of wavetable synthesis. It's the same in Serum and Icarus.
Hmmm... I don't know. The same wavetable plays differently in all these synths. I can post some audio examples. The synth engine has a word on that, I think.
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am
2. Hive lacks a wavetable editor
So do many classic "specialized" wavetable synthesizers by Waldorf, PPG, Native Instruments, Waves. I do not see how Hive is a lesser wavetable synthesizer than these in respect of "being a wavetable synthesizer". Some of these can't even load external wavetables, or only in very limited quality.
Yes, I'm aware :)

But Serum and Icarus are now the most mentioned wavetable synths for some reason, and I bet that fact they can edit and create wavetables has something to do. And the most recent Waldorf wavetable synth (Nave) also can edit wavetables. Massive is quite old, as is Largo. PPG is an emulation of an old synth, which had the Waveterm for that - they chose to let that part out. Codex almost doesn't count.

BTW - I still didn't find a way to define a region in the wavetable, and just have Hive play that wavetable region. Am I missing something? I can define the starting point, but from then on, Hive always plays the entire wavetable.
Fernando (FMR)

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Urs
u-he
23264 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:49 am

fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:38 am
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am
fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 am
just keeps the harmonic partials, whch makes the playback more "synthetic".
That's a property of wavetable synthesis. It's the same in Serum and Icarus.
Hmmm... I don't know. The same wavetable plays differently in all these synths. I can post some audio examples. The synth engine has a word on that, I think.
Please do, if possible with effects and filters turned off. I *am* curious for examples where the result is audibly different :)
the most mentioned wavetable synths for some reason
Sure. But I'm not fully convinced that this reason is the impact of the built-in wavetable editor.
BTW - I still didn't find a way to define a region in the wavetable, and just have Hive play that wavetable region. Am I missing something? I can define the starting point, but from then on, Hive always plays the entire wavetable.
You can not define such regions in other wavetable synthesizers either. E.g. I don't know of any such option in Serum. You'd do as you would in those: You'd assign a modulation source suitable for what you need (sequencer, LFO, envelope...), or a combination of these with the auto function.

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fmr
KVRAF
8441 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:47 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:49 am
fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:38 am
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am
fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 am
just keeps the harmonic partials, whch makes the playback more "synthetic".
That's a property of wavetable synthesis. It's the same in Serum and Icarus.
Hmmm... I don't know. The same wavetable plays differently in all these synths. I can post some audio examples. The synth engine has a word on that, I think.
Please do, if possible with effects and filters turned off. I *am* curious for examples where the result is audibly different :)
Will do my best to come up with these soon enough :-)

First I have to prepare presets that read the wavetables more or less at the same speed and as neutral as possible (carefully checking that everything else is turned off).
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:49 am
BTW - I still didn't find a way to define a region in the wavetable, and just have Hive play that wavetable region. Am I missing something? I can define the starting point, but from then on, Hive always plays the entire wavetable.
You can not define such regions in other wavetable synthesizers either. E.g. I don't know of any such option in Serum. You'd do as you would in those: You'd assign a modulation source suitable for what you need (sequencer, LFO, envelope...), or a combination of these with the auto function.
Of course :dog: Somehow, since I saw the loop function, I was looking for a way to define the "loop region" :oops:
Last edited by fmr on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

nichttuntun
KVRian
532 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:50 am

:)

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Urs
u-he
23264 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:42 am

:lol:

chk071
KVRAF
18590 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:00 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
nichttuntun wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 am
Now I only can say that Icarus for example is a beast when it comes to wavetable scanning and morphing and manipulating one wavetable with another (plus FM and many many more manipulation features). The possibilities there for shaping the sound further are tremendous.
I totally agree. But then, this isn't a particularly common thing among wavetable synthesizers. If you set the bar with editors like Serum and Icarus have, you also need to point out that Largo, Massive, Codex etc. do not reach that bar.
The question is, do they have to? I cannot imagine a limit to the sounds I can do with Largo and Massive alone. Of course, having a wavetable editor, and the ability to import wavetables/waveforms is great, but, as many wavetables and features to further manipulate sound both have, I don't see a limit in what I can do really.

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Urs
u-he
23264 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:18 am

chk071 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:00 am
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
nichttuntun wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 am
Now I only can say that Icarus for example is a beast when it comes to wavetable scanning and morphing and manipulating one wavetable with another (plus FM and many many more manipulation features). The possibilities there for shaping the sound further are tremendous.
I totally agree. But then, this isn't a particularly common thing among wavetable synthesizers. If you set the bar with editors like Serum and Icarus have, you also need to point out that Largo, Massive, Codex etc. do not reach that bar.
The question is, do they have to? I cannot imagine a limit to the sounds I can do with Largo and Massive alone. Of course, having a wavetable editor, and the ability to import wavetables/waveforms is great, but, as many wavetables and features to further manipulate sound both have, I don't see a limit in what I can do really.
Me neither. I think drawing wavetables isn't a terribly rewarding experience. The reason Zebra only ever had 16 slots is because it's ridiculous to expect people to draw 50 or more with some kind of paintbrush tool - and hope for musical results. You'd usually (hopefully...) want to paint a few and run some kind of algorithm to do things with them.

chk071
KVRAF
18590 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:27 am

:tu:

Exactly my feeling too. Cableguys Curve e.g seemed like a great idea to me at first as well. Then I realized how much the experience of drawing waveforms, and creating something I absolutely wasn't aiming for in the first place, frustrated me. Waveshaping, on the other hand, always was very rewarding for me, in Z3TA. Especially when modulating the waveshapers - instant movement.

nichttuntun
KVRian
532 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:36 am

I think that's an important point. As said the magic starts when modulation options set in and not when drawing hundreds of waveforms. A cool thing is having own sample import and dragging some wave cycles out of it. Sounds boring at first and nothing like the sample but when modulating it it can really get a fantastic and unique sound. Re-synthesis of course is also a nice addition for adding new waveforms and maybe they become a part of a new wavetable.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14810 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:41 am

fmr wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:38 am
Urs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:26 am
That's a property of wavetable synthesis. It's the same in Serum and Icarus.
Hmmm... I don't know. The same wavetable plays differently in all these synths. I can post some audio examples. The synth engine has a word on that, I think.
There will be some differences, but they are all going to be clean and as you say 'synthetic'. It's the nature of wavetables.

Now Serum and Icarus have the Warp (called Morph in Icarus) function. With that you can add some noise to the wavetable (depending on the chosen type). Hive does not have any way to directly make the wavetable noisy like that.

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