Diva's Depth Mod (something has been bothering me)
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 3889 posts since 3 Feb, 2010
Why modulation inscrease when its set on 0 and not on 100? was it a mistake made at the very first version and decided to keep it ?
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- KVRAF
- 4122 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
Nobody responded so far because your question wasn't clear enough - we don't know what you mean! Which "modulation"?
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- KVRAF
- 4122 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
I have a hunch...
If "Vibrato" is turned up and LFO1 "Depth Mod" is set to zero, you will get full strength vibrato. Although perhaps unusual, this is correct behaviour and is quite logical: As there is no modulation, the nominal value of the target parameter (LFO1 level i.e. vibrato depth) is unaffected.
If, on the other hand, you use e.g. ModWheel as modulation source and set the "Mod Depth" to maximum, the vibrato amount is controlled 100% by the wheel... so if the wheel is at zero you will get no vibrato. It will only appear if you push the mod wheel. If there is no modulation source defined, setting "Mod Depth" to maximum multiplies the target with zero - so you get zero vibrato.
If this isn't clear, read it again until "the penny drops" - good luck!
If "Vibrato" is turned up and LFO1 "Depth Mod" is set to zero, you will get full strength vibrato. Although perhaps unusual, this is correct behaviour and is quite logical: As there is no modulation, the nominal value of the target parameter (LFO1 level i.e. vibrato depth) is unaffected.
If, on the other hand, you use e.g. ModWheel as modulation source and set the "Mod Depth" to maximum, the vibrato amount is controlled 100% by the wheel... so if the wheel is at zero you will get no vibrato. It will only appear if you push the mod wheel. If there is no modulation source defined, setting "Mod Depth" to maximum multiplies the target with zero - so you get zero vibrato.
If this isn't clear, read it again until "the penny drops" - good luck!
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- u-he
- 28062 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
I guess the penny drops quicker if we explain what it is and what it isn't 
Depth Mod (on LFO) is *not* the depth/amplitude of the LFO
Depth Mod sets how much of the LFO's amplitude is controlled by something else.
As a result, yes, if that something else is "none", there'll be no amplitude at all at full Depth Mod, and thus the LFO will be silent.
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The alternative would mean separate knobs for LFO amplitude and modulation. However, most u-he synths follow the "depth on target" modulation paradigm. That is, the modulation depth is set on the target of that modulation. This has the advantage that modulation sources can be shared among targets with a maximum of flexibility.
It would be counter intuitive to also surrender control of modulation amplitudes to modulation sources. Hence, by not having that extra knob on the LFO, we actually make things more consistent. Even if it means that the Depth Mod knob needs to act like it does, for lack of making sense in any other way.
Depth Mod (on LFO) is *not* the depth/amplitude of the LFO
Depth Mod sets how much of the LFO's amplitude is controlled by something else.
As a result, yes, if that something else is "none", there'll be no amplitude at all at full Depth Mod, and thus the LFO will be silent.
#----------------
The alternative would mean separate knobs for LFO amplitude and modulation. However, most u-he synths follow the "depth on target" modulation paradigm. That is, the modulation depth is set on the target of that modulation. This has the advantage that modulation sources can be shared among targets with a maximum of flexibility.
It would be counter intuitive to also surrender control of modulation amplitudes to modulation sources. Hence, by not having that extra knob on the LFO, we actually make things more consistent. Even if it means that the Depth Mod knob needs to act like it does, for lack of making sense in any other way.
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alberto_balsalm alberto_balsalm https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=439809
- KVRist
- 48 posts since 24 Apr, 2019
Depth Mod for LFO isn't really backwards. It's just that by default it's assigned to mod wheel, and your mod wheel position is usually at 0, and so when you turn the Depth Mod knob from 100 towards 0, you're simply reducing the effect of the mod wheel position on the LFO depth. But the mod wheel position is constant and it's at 0, so the Depth Mod knob seems to behave as if it's "backwards", but it just does what it's supposed to. It's the default assignment to mod wheel that it confusing.
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- KVRer
- 8 posts since 23 Aug, 2002
I’m testing the demo version of Diva for ARM and noticed the same and was gonna report it as a bug but I see it’s a feature 
Pretty counterintuitive IMO though. How about adding another source there that’s called “passthrough” or “constant” or something like that to make it work more intuitive. That will also have the added bonus of being able to use positive/negative phase of LFO when turning the knob right/left from zero.
BTW, is there a way to have mod wheel assigned as a source to the LFO but at the same time to have some modulation even when the mod wheel is zeroed? Or in other words, can we have some constant slight vibrato even when the mod wheel is zero and then the mod wheel will increase it? That’s possible on my Behringer Model D (not sure about original Minimoog).
Pretty counterintuitive IMO though. How about adding another source there that’s called “passthrough” or “constant” or something like that to make it work more intuitive. That will also have the added bonus of being able to use positive/negative phase of LFO when turning the knob right/left from zero. BTW, is there a way to have mod wheel assigned as a source to the LFO but at the same time to have some modulation even when the mod wheel is zeroed? Or in other words, can we have some constant slight vibrato even when the mod wheel is zero and then the mod wheel will increase it? That’s possible on my Behringer Model D (not sure about original Minimoog).
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- KVRAF
- 23101 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yes, you can get that by not setting DepthMod to maximum.
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- KVRer
- 8 posts since 23 Aug, 2002
Indeed, you are right, thank you! I actually got it all clear now: the vibrato knob in the tuning section controls the hard linked mod between LFO1 and oscillator pitch. I thought that link was going through the Depth Mod knob too, which is what confused me but it's all clear now. It also makes sense to have that depth mod acting the way it is when "none" is selected as mod source.EvilDragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:34 am Yes, you can get that by not setting DepthMod to maximum.
Diva is great, my last day experiments with it confirm that I will purchase it. Seems there were 50% discounts in the past and I was hoping to purchase both Diva and Repro for the price of one but I guess I'll just go with only the Diva at full price because I really love it and find it more versatile than the Repro anyway.
A bit of an offtopic, but am I right that the Repro is even more realistic in its analog modeling (hence more CPU-intensive) than the Diva?
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- KVRAF
- 23101 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yes Repro has newer DSP and is definitely more accurate. That's not to say that Diva is "bad", but it IS pushing its 10th year next year
