Zebra 3 feature suggestions

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Urs wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:26 am
hakey wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:07 am
Urs wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:31 am
hakey wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:24 am How about a noise-like but non-random impulse for the Comb Filter PreFill (+modal bank)?
You mean, like a transient module with various exciters (hammers and stuff)?
Yes, a transient module would be even better. :)
Well, we're pondering about several options. For one thing, a one-shot mode for the oscillator is a possibility (but might interfere with a plethora of other improvements there). A dedicated transient module could have various pre-made algorithmic exciters with various parameters. Those could even be triggered by any modulation source.
A dedicated transient module could be interesting. Would be easier for beginners. However, much of the time I would still use an Osc instead as it will be more flexible.

Hive's wavetable Osc makes a fine exciter for the new filters. It is fast to arrow through the wavetables in Hive to hear how it sounds as an exciter for one of the new filters.

A Zebra MSEG would be perfect for shaping the transient.

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Adjustable velocity curve

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The best synths in this world are digital.Korg Z1 Kawai K5000 Yamaha AN1x-TG77 Roland D-70 JP8000 V-Synth.
And now understand you can't find this synths as software.
Wavetable synth and analog emulations is all they produce again and again.
Why?
Listen Urs,its time for a change.

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BTHaniss wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:08 pm Adjustable velocity curve
Make it a generic option so one can control the curve for velocity, aftertouch, timbre etc.

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Spirit2020 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:42 pm The best synths in this world are digital.Korg Z1 Kawai K5000 Yamaha AN1x-TG77 Roland D-70 JP8000 V-Synth.
And now understand you can't find this synths as software.
Wavetable synth and analog emulations is all they produce again and again.
Why?
Listen Urs,its time for a change.
That's funny... for years I had a Z1 and all I used it for was as a controller for my u-he synths... :lol:

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Spirit2020 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:42 pm The best synths in this world are digital.Korg Z1 Kawai K5000 Yamaha AN1x-TG77 Roland D-70 JP8000 V-Synth.
And now understand you can't find this synths as software.
Wavetable synth and analog emulations is all they produce again and again.
Why?
Listen Urs,its time for a change.
I'm confused as to what you're asking for?

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Shiek927 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:43 pm
Spirit2020 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:42 pm The best synths in this world are digital.Korg Z1 Kawai K5000 Yamaha AN1x-TG77 Roland D-70 JP8000 V-Synth.
And now understand you can't find this synths as software.
Wavetable synth and analog emulations is all they produce again and again.
Why?
Listen Urs,its time for a change.
I'm confused as to what you're asking for?
Maybe harmonic Envelopes. The disovery of the spectral time axis.

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GRUMP wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:01 am
Shiek927 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:43 pm
Spirit2020 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:42 pm The best synths in this world are digital.Korg Z1 Kawai K5000 Yamaha AN1x-TG77 Roland D-70 JP8000 V-Synth.
And now understand you can't find this synths as software.
Wavetable synth and analog emulations is all they produce again and again.
Why?
Listen Urs,its time for a change.
I'm confused as to what you're asking for?
Maybe harmonic Envelopes. The disovery of the spectral time axis.
I mean, there was just a conversation just now about classic digital synths. I hear them if it feels like super-clean wavetable synths and classic analog plugins (e.g. Minimoogs, Jupiters, Junos, etc), feel like the only things synth-plugin developers seem to be interested. On that front, I agree and would love to see much more interest from devs in looking toward this era, because they have dozens of synths to choose or take inspiration from. If Sprit2020's wish is for Urs to create a synth plugin akin or based on one of those classic digital synths, I think I'd prefer to see Z3 first since that's a synth looooong in the making, but I sure as heck wouldn't mind the classic digital synth version of Diva one day :oops:

Will Z3 sound like this? it's pretty safe to say the answer is no as it's always been it's own thing (not that Hans Zimmer and many other composers have ever complained). It's my hope that it will sound "as good" as those old classic digitals, which is a super subjective thing, but it mainly comes down to "a digital synth that is as rich and analog as a classic analog synth ala a Roland Juno 06, but carrying all the possibilities and flexibility of a digital synth'. I laid down examples with a few youtube videos of some classic digital synths that has some real ballsy and rich characters that undoubtedly Z3 will be on par with in it's own way. At this point, software has long since gotten to the point of sounding as good as classic analog synths, especially with ZDF and component-level modeling like Repro, so Z3 will sound amazing even if it doesn't sound like the exact synths Spirit2020 outlined.

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Zebra 2 already sounds as good as any classic digital synth... it just doesn't sound exactly the same.

For the most part, todays top softsynths have already surpassed the hardware digital of yesteryear.

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Physical Modeling is very unbelievable if you can handle it.Its a synthesis with endless possibilities.

Its the combination of samples and synthesis in between what make the magic.
The Ensoniq Fizmo is also very good in this way.

And what is important for a synth are layers.Not only oscillators and that's it.

Like Rolands zenology,but they have forget to make layers possible.




Remember the D-70 Roland :wink:

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Shiek927 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:20 am I mean, there was just a conversation just now about classic digital synths. I hear them if it feels like super-clean wavetable synths and classic analog plugins (e.g. Minimoogs, Jupiters, Junos, etc), feel like the only things synth-plugin developers seem to be interested. On that front, I agree and would love to see much more interest from devs in looking toward this era, because they have dozens of synths to choose or take inspiration from. If Sprit2020's wish is for Urs to create a synth plugin akin or based on one of those classic digital synths, I think I'd prefer to see Z3 first since that's a synth looooong in the making, but I sure as heck wouldn't mind the classic digital synth version of Diva one day :oops:

Will Z3 sound like this? it's pretty safe to say the answer is no as it's always been it's own thing (not that Hans Zimmer and many other composers have ever complained). It's my hope that it will sound "as good" as those old classic digitals, which is a super subjective thing, but it mainly comes down to "a digital synth that is as rich and analog as a classic analog synth ala a Roland Juno 06, but carrying all the possibilities and flexibility of a digital synth'. I laid down examples with a few youtube videos of some classic digital synths that has some real ballsy and rich characters that undoubtedly Z3 will be on par with in it's own way. At this point, software has long since gotten to the point of sounding as good as classic analog synths, especially with ZDF and component-level modeling like Repro, so Z3 will sound amazing even if it doesn't sound like the exact synths Spirit2020 outlined.
How to say without offending someone? Maybe "I <3 digital". That is positive or at least seems so ;-)

When I think of synths and those days I mainly remember that brochure of the K5000 lying besides my ASR10. I still regret my descision for a competitor, although the K5 was a "flop". It was the most intersting Synth ever built i. m. O. and everything would have taken an other way.

But I don´t think that anyone will take a flop as model for a new development, especially considering the ingoing analogue hype. As I´ve experienced they try to attract and trick "digitals" with buzzwords like "additive Oscillators" to buy their stuff, but as we both know the result is disappointment in the end. It is no comparison - and that ist really a pity. I´d even tend to say that the lack of "digital wealth" (of softsynths) is the biggest disadvantage of contemporary EM and one of the reasons why some many people don´t listen anymore.

And one more thing: back then there was lots of criticism that Roland & Co (and the music Industry) would make/generate "taste". I miss this thougt in todays debates and would state that it is lastly unclear if the people want analogues or they are broght to believe that they want/need those clubs. The music made with digitals is the best proof that these days were much more colourful than todays foggy sundown ;-)

Can you post a link to yout videos? I frequently listen to synthmania &Co to get inspired and I´m looking forwards to hear your demos!

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pdxindy wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:13 pm Zebra 2 already sounds as good as any classic digital synth... it just doesn't sound exactly the same.

For the most part, todays top softsynths have already surpassed the hardware digital of yesteryear.
Zebra2 is nothing to sneeze at, that's for sure! and listening to Hive's new filters, I'm hearing some crazy good tones that sound as good as anything out there. I mean, the physical modeling type sounds I'm hearing sounds as good as, dare I say it, Diva. Today's synths are definitely very impressive, even if they don't have the color of yesteryear.
How to say without offending someone? Maybe "I <3 digital". That is positive or at least seems so ;-)
Hardly any offense! without bogging down this thread with same convo, I grew up with classic digital synths (that gives you a hint as to how young/old I am lol). Some of my favorite genres, like old-school Euro and classic dance or the soundtracks of yesteryear, predominantly used PCM, VA and the digital synths of the time which were then cutting-edge. Not all of them sounded good by any stretch, but they all had unique colors of their own and a select few sounded just as rich as the analog synths they were trying to emulate. It was a very experimental era and helped shape the genres and zeitgeist of that period.

As for examples, sure! these aren't my demos - simply demos online of some of my fave and imo best-sounding digital synths. Credit goes to everyone who made them :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NddCLbyi8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEwG1uz6iQ&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qegkrb2-6bc


I wouldn't say though the 'best' synths in the world are digital. If the popular vote and statistics are anything to go by, that will always go the analog big-boys. But classic digital is nothing to sneeze at and hopefully they'll have their day in the sun again.

But anyway, let's try to return to Zebra3. I think any further talk on classic digital synths should really be it's own separate thread :lol:

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Will there be any expansion in terms of multitimberal features in Z3?

I know it has a bit of it already with the ability to send certain oscillators to different keyboard splits, so it has some multitimberal support. Will there be any expansion of that in any way? layering to create thicker/richer sounds ala the fantastic "Combi" patches on the old Korg workstations? that's something I definitely would love, especially since I love the Stacking in u-he Diva to really get some fatter tones. Maybe a Stack/Live Mode similar to Omnisphere 2 that makes organizing keyboard splits that much easier, particularly for live playing?

actually, will there be anything in general that makes Live performance easier? I know that wasn't necessarily always the principle purpose behind Zebra which was more of a studio tool, but it's something to look into!

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Shiek927 wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:32 am Will there be any expansion in terms of multitimberal features in Z3?

I know it has a bit of it already with the ability to send certain oscillators to different keyboard splits, so it has some multitimberal support. Will there be any expansion of that in any way? layering to create thicker/richer sounds ala the fantastic "Combi" patches on the old Korg workstations? that's something I definitely would love, especially since I love the Stacking in u-he Diva to really get some fatter tones. Maybe a Stack/Live Mode similar to Omnisphere 2 that makes organizing keyboard splits that much easier, particularly for live playing?

actually, will there be anything in general that makes Live performance easier? I know that wasn't necessarily always the principle purpose behind Zebra which was more of a studio tool, but it's something to look into!
I'm toying with the concept behind Ensoniq's "Patch Select" buttons, where a controller or "hot keys" or a key range or, say, Velocity could be used to switch sets of voice-modules on or off. A quick and easy way to create and switch between selections of modules. Technically this can of course be done already using various means of modulation, but it's tedious to set up. OTOH a lot of focus in Z3 is going into mixing and distribution of signals, so maybe that alone might do the trick.

That said, our framework early on got stubs for multitimbrality, but I dropped development of these concepts because they cause more problems than they solve. If we disregard "expressions" as known from sample instruments, the only way multitimbrality makes sense in a Daw context is the concept of layers. But then, layers in synth are my pet peeve next to samples. It doesn't go in my head why the modulators from Layer 1 shouldn't be usable in Layers 2-8 and vice versa. Unless of course one is into copy/paste and endless recombinations of sub-patch-presets, which would probably amount to my third pet peeve.

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I'm toying with the concept behind Ensoniq's "Patch Select" buttons, where a controller or "hot keys" or a key range or, say, Velocity could be used to switch sets of voice-modules on or off. A quick and easy way to create and switch between selections of modules. Technically this can of course be done already using various means of modulation, but it's tedious to set up. OTOH a lot of focus in Z3 is going into mixing and distribution of signals, so maybe that alone might do the trick.
I looked it up and it looks neat! it's essentially like having Macro Buttons where turning them on or off activates different "tones" you created. VPS Avenger can do something like that where maybe you only want the distortion effect or oscillator controlling the arp pattern to only come on at a certain point. Macros might be something to look into, especially if you can just click and highlight certain modules with a reticle like Hive's new Mod Matrix. From there, you can automate it to only turn on in your DAW at a certain point or map it to a Modwheel. It might however be messy and overly complicated though.
That said, our framework early on got stubs for multitimbrality, but I dropped development of these concepts because they cause more problems than they solve. If we disregard "expressions" as known from sample instruments, the only way multitimbrality makes sense in a Daw context is the concept of layers. But then, layers in synth are my pet peeve next to samples. It doesn't go in my head why the modulators from Layer 1 shouldn't be usable in Layers 2-8 and vice versa. Unless of course one is into copy/paste and endless recombinations of sub-patch-presets, which would probably amount to my third pet peeve.
That's fair! I feel like all the ideas could lead to excessive complication really fast haha. How I imagined it would be like the Korg M1 or Korg Triton plugins where there's a list of Layers on the left-hand corner numbering from 1 to 16. Each layer would let you use all the modules (oscillators, filters, etc) and you can mute, solo, panning, and adjust the volume of each layer. So one Layer can be strictly for a bass-y sound, another for a pad, and so-on.

https://ibb.co/W2FHwJG

Here is a poor Photoshop'd image of Zebra2 with the M1's layering that might show how something like this could fit :lol: . On the flip-side however, if there were to be something like this, I think it would be very CPU-intensive unless there were less-accurate filters overall (less ideal imo), 'quality modes' ala Diva, some filters that use more CPU than others (similar to the Diva filters in ZebraHZ), or simply less layering going on in the patch.

There's going to be a trade-off somewhere and it depends on what sort of cocktail the synth ends up going for in terms of CPU intensity, simplicity and complexity.

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