Are asymmetrical triangles possible in Hive Shape Sequencer?

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KVRer
20 posts since 4 Nov, 2020

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:07 am

Hello everybody! I've recently been playing around with Hive for the first time and I'm really enjoying using it. I've found the majority of it pretty intuitive to use, though I've barely scratched the surface of it.

One thing I've been wondering is whether it's possible to create asymmetrical triangles in the shape sequencer - specifically to leave the handles at the far left and right but move the centre of the shape? I've had a read through that section in the manual but couldn't find anything about it. I've tried ratcheting but that moves the right handle to the left and eventually subdivides the shape. The closest I could come up with was using two slots in with saws pointing towards each other but that still leaves the middle in the same place. Perhaps there's a more elegant solution that I've missed, maybe in a different part of the synth? Or would I be better off using an MSEG in Zebra for this?

Thanks in advance.

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:50 am

I was toying with the idea, but then haven't done it that way. We could still add it, but it would be nice to see examples that illustrate the usefulness. In my observation, so far, there wasn't much need or it.

(I've actually experimented with Synthi-style oscillators that can morph between saw - triangle - ramp and was not overly impressed with the sonic possibilities, but that of course is audio, not modulation)

That said, the FunctionGenerators provide for something similar when triggered as envelopes, e.g. by the Shape Sequencer. But fo course this isn't a visual process, you might need to use the scope to set the right Attack and Decay.

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KVRAF
18753 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:09 am

nick_op wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:07 am
Hello everybody! I've recently been playing around with Hive for the first time and I'm really enjoying using it. I've found the majority of it pretty intuitive to use, though I've barely scratched the surface of it.

One thing I've been wondering is whether it's possible to create asymmetrical triangles in the shape sequencer - specifically to leave the handles at the far left and right but move the centre of the shape? I've had a read through that section in the manual but couldn't find anything about it. I've tried ratcheting but that moves the right handle to the left and eventually subdivides the shape. The closest I could come up with was using two slots in with saws pointing towards each other but that still leaves the middle in the same place. Perhaps there's a more elegant solution that I've missed, maybe in a different part of the synth? Or would I be better off using an MSEG in Zebra for this?

Thanks in advance.
You can create asymmetrical triangle by using multiple Shape Sequencer stages... say 4. First one is a ramp up and next 3 are a 3 stage ramp down.

You can make the Function Generator into an asymmetrical triangle, but you cannot for example make it trigger in sync. So like an 1/8 beat asym triangle triggered every 1/2 is not possible. Would be nice to have a mode for that.

KVRer

Topic Starter

20 posts since 4 Nov, 2020

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:31 am

Thanks for you reply, Urs. What I've been trying to achieve is a pulsating effect controlling oscillator volume where each pulse takes place over the course of a beat, but the high point is displaced within the beat. The idea was to have 8 slightly different shapes picked at random to give an uneasy feeling while still staying in time.

It's entirely possible that there's another way to do this, but my sheer lack of sound design experience led me to attempt it this way. I'll take a look at the function generators and see if I can use them in this way.

pdxindy - Thanks for your reply as well. You also mentioned function generators, so it looks like that's my next stop.

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:44 am

My suggestion would be 4 shapes, each occupying 1 slot:

\ , \_, /\, /\_ (saw down, saw down with a tad of ratchet, triangle, triangle with a tad of ratchet)

Now add some slew limiting to the modulation and you should get randomly pulsating beats...

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KVRAF
18753 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:05 am

nick_op wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:31 am
Thanks for you reply, Urs. What I've been trying to achieve is a pulsating effect controlling oscillator volume where each pulse takes place over the course of a beat, but the high point is displaced within the beat. The idea was to have 8 slightly different shapes picked at random to give an uneasy feeling while still staying in time.

It's entirely possible that there's another way to do this, but my sheer lack of sound design experience led me to attempt it this way. I'll take a look at the function generators and see if I can use them in this way.

pdxindy - Thanks for your reply as well. You also mentioned function generators, so it looks like that's my next stop.
Okay, here ya go... Set LFO 1 to Saw Down and 1/1 Time base

Then use Function Generator as your volume modulator and set Input to LFO1 and Mode to Follow. Now the function generator Attack parameter will turn the LFO1 SAW into a triangle. Modulating the Function Generator Attack parameter will change the shape of the triangle.

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KVRAF
4036 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 am

There's a much easier method: Modulate the Shape's 'Position' by itself.
( Recursive modulation strikes again! :-) )
Shape.png
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Last edited by Howard on Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
18753 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:19 am

Howard wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 am
There's a much easier method: Modulate the Shape's 'Position' by itself.
(Recursive does it again :-) )
Shape.png
Nice! :tu:

Tricky to make a different slope on each iteration though...

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:19 am
Howard wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 am
There's a much easier method: Modulate the Shape's 'Position' by itself.
(Recursive does it again :-) )
Shape.png
Nice! :tu:

Tricky to make a different slope on each iteration though...
Modulate the Mod Depth with Random, using S&H, triggered by the ShapeSeq itself.

Just verified - works!
Screenshot 2021-03-26 at 17.39.51.png
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KVRAF
18753 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:48 am

Urs wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 am
pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:19 am
Howard wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 am
There's a much easier method: Modulate the Shape's 'Position' by itself.
(Recursive does it again :-) )
Shape.png
Nice! :tu:

Tricky to make a different slope on each iteration though...
Modulate the Mod Depth with Random, using S&H, triggered by the ShapeSeq itself.

Just verified - works!

Screenshot 2021-03-26 at 17.39.51.png
Sweet...

EDIT: If I let it run for a while and watch it on the scope, it glitches sometimes... (making sure to keep the SeqA Position modulation below 50%)

KVRAF
8383 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:28 am

Modulating the shape sequencer with itself? You guys are such beautiful nerds. ;)

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:30 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:48 am

EDIT: If I let it run for a while and watch it on the scope, it glitches sometimes... (making sure to keep the SeqA Position modulation below 50%)
Hmmm, gotta investigate that. Might be an odd timing problem when the trigger for the random S&H comes a bit late due to recursive modulation of shape, and then the phase modulation seems to "jump".

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KVRAF
18753 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:34 am

Urs wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:30 am
pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:48 am

EDIT: If I let it run for a while and watch it on the scope, it glitches sometimes... (making sure to keep the SeqA Position modulation below 50%)
Hmmm, gotta investigate that. Might be an odd timing problem when the trigger for the random S&H comes a bit late due to recursive modulation of shape, and then the phase modulation seems to "jump".
I had tried using Random Hold LFO set to the same timebase as the Shape Sequencer... didn't get them to trigger at the same time... and it wasn't just phase offset

btw, is there a reason why the Shape Sequencers don't have a Sync trigger option?

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:34 am
Urs wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:30 am
pdxindy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:48 am

EDIT: If I let it run for a while and watch it on the scope, it glitches sometimes... (making sure to keep the SeqA Position modulation below 50%)
Hmmm, gotta investigate that. Might be an odd timing problem when the trigger for the random S&H comes a bit late due to recursive modulation of shape, and then the phase modulation seems to "jump".
I had tried using Random Hold LFO set to the same timebase as the Shape Sequencer... didn't get them to trigger at the same time... and it wasn't just phase offset
I'll look into that. (feedback modulation is super sensitive stuff in respect of phase...)
btw, is there a reason why the Shape Sequencers don't have a Sync trigger option?
I had to surrender after a plethora of issues trying to make this work. Then decided to stick to the simplicity of having them always aligned with the lifetime of a voice. After all, now you can use an LFO to drive them any way/rhythm you want.

KVRer

Topic Starter

20 posts since 4 Nov, 2020

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:04 am

You guys are fantastic! Thanks so much for the help! I used the combined method from Howard and Urs and got the effect that I've been aiming for. It's something that I wouldn't have thought of (at least at this level of experience), but now I have plenty ideas of how I could use the different sequencers to get different variations of the same idea.

Thanks again to everybody who made suggestions. I'm glad to be part of such a supportive community.

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