OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm

You are probably aware of this idiotic Apple's nonsense now, but what are we going to do? At some point people will start buying new machines with this crap preinstalled, so...

Now, we should support like 10.7 to the newest, right? Or maybe we can survive with 10.9 I don't know, either way Metal didn't exist yet, so there's no alternative for OpenGL. And we should also support ProTools 10 (which are still used by some oldschoolers, including some big studios afaik), which doesn't support 32-bit stuff... So... Not sure what to do now.

We may either say "WE ARE NOT SUPPORTING CATALINA"

Or "WE ARE NOT SUPPORTING OLDER OSX VERSIONS AND PT 10"

:D

Awesome :D Ideas?
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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vortico
KVRist
293 posts since 19 Jul, 2008

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:28 pm

What's wrong with OpenGL? I tested VCV Rack, an OpenGL application, and it works fine on MacOS 10.15.
VCV Rack open-source virtual modular synthesizer

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mgw38
KVRAF
1953 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:55 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm
You are probably aware of this idiotic Apple's nonsense now, but what are we going to do? At some point people will start buying new machines with this crap preinstalled, so...
Not a big fan of developers who feel the need to insult their customer's purchase decisions. I am an Apple user and do not mind if a developer makes the decision to not support that platform. The market is saturated and there are alternatives for everything. But the constant bitching is annoying. Please make up your mind so that I know if it makes sense to purchase your products or not.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
3384 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:58 pm

^^^
I agree with this. If it bothers you so much just drop support for MacOS and be done with it. Don’t just bitch about things you have no control over.

Tilly
KVRist
41 posts since 18 Feb, 2019

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:09 pm

I actually think, stop supporting the new MacOS (OpenGL drop, 32bit drop, notarization mandatory, ...). The resistance in audio industry has to start somewhere and they've actually already lost the pro market. Just complaining without any actions will never change anything.

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:39 pm

It felt really good to stop programming Macs :)

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:22 am

vortico wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:28 pm
What's wrong with OpenGL? I tested VCV Rack, an OpenGL application, and it works fine on MacOS 10.15.
So it hasn't been dropped? Hmmm that would be good. I actually recently talked to a guy from apple dev support (who was absolutely unhelpful as usual :D ) a he asked me "when are we switching to metal", so I told him "never the audio industry cannot switch for compatibility reasons" and then I read about dropping OpenGL, so I was like "aaaha middle finger, here it is" :D. I'll wait for the official 10.15 and we'll see then.
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:26 am

Tilly wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:09 pm
I actually think, stop supporting the new MacOS (OpenGL drop, 32bit drop, notarization mandatory, ...). The resistance in audio industry has to start somewhere and they've actually already lost the pro market. Just complaining without any actions will never change anything.
Hehe yeah it would be great, getting the middle fingers from them all the time and fixing their bugs is a majir headache, but I don't think the users would stop using them. Just read a certain post in this thread. The truth is Apple chose their customer base very well... They will support them even if Apple makes their life a mysery (for now dev lives are taking the main hit though :( )
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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akeia
KVRist
149 posts since 14 Nov, 2016 from Berliner Umland

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:34 am

I have a feeling that OSX 10.15 will break a lot of music applications. Users in the music field will need to avoid it as long as possible. It may be the best and most cost effective way to wait until the way to go becomes obvious.

Regarding Apple deprecating APIs you should form alliances with other music devs and inform Apple about the circumstances and magnitude of the problem. They seem to live in their ivory towers much.

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:06 am

It will. The problem is stubborn Apple users will blame app/plugin devs for Apple mistakes as usual. But yes it would be interesting if we would form alliances and globally stop supporting Apple forcing them to change attitude or users to switch to Windows (which would be better anyways) . But we would need the big players...
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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discoDSP
KVRAF
4343 posts since 18 Jul, 2002

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:54 am

I received a email from NI asking their users NOT to update to Catalina. Looks like it's headed to get some noise from audio devs :bang:

KenjiDeVries
KVRist
45 posts since 14 Oct, 2017

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:07 am

I bet this will also be true for interface vendors like Universal Audio or companies like Steinberg. They always had problems to fix new issues introduced in MacOS versions or havn't even finished fixing the ones from previous versions.

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:27 am

Hehe yeah but I have a feeling Apple won't care anyways :D
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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lorcan
KVRist
137 posts since 26 Sep, 2001 from Paris, France

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:19 am

AFAIK OpenGL is only deprecated since Mojave, not removed.
I can't see anything related to OpenGL removal in Catalina's release notes either.
That would put a lot of plug-in developers in a tight spot :(
We've found 10.14+ XCode SDK's have various problems with OpenGL (bugs, worsened performance),
so we stick with 10.13 for now.

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11464 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

Post Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:29 am

Cool! And yeah, mojave started to be even more buggy than before and i susoect catalina will be much much worse...
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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