Sympathetic resonance

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
solomute
Banned
181 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Post Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:46 am

nor should there be.
I doubt that. All other things don't glue instrument together. This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other
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matt42
KVRian
1057 posts since 9 Jan, 2006

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:06 am

solomute wrote:
nor should there be.
I doubt that. All other things don't glue instrument together. This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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BertKoor
KVRAF
10634 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:23 am

On a real drum kit, you'll hear the snares underneath the snare rattle when for instance the base player hits a note.
So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.

It's instruments interacting with each other because they are in the same room. A mixing engine can't do that :shrug:
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
26115 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:42 am

solomute wrote:
nor should there be.
I doubt that.
Doesn't make any difference. Its not a DAW's job.
This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other
Even if that were true, it doesnt make it something a DAW should be doing.

And if your yardstick is 'natural', when you're talking about simulations of acoustic sympathetic resonances of multiple real instruments plus the necessary room and environment modelling then you're in a problem space way beyond that of even the most complex reverbs just for some relatively minor acoustic artefacts.

And if its not for real acoustic instruments, its not natural anyway. :shrug:
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kamalmanzukie
KVRist
145 posts since 12 May, 2012

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:33 pm

i did this in reaktor for a sitar once, a bank of tuned drone strings, and then you need to excite them with the output of the melody string, fed through some kind of body resonator (or just excite the melody string with an impulse response of the body for commuted waveguide) and then this usually needs some kind of noiseification before exiting the drone to decouple the frequencies a bit. i think this last part might kind of approximate the distance from bridge/complexity of frequencies bouncing everywhere.

i had it probably one of the best synthesized sitar sounds id ever heard until it crashed, and i never was able to get it quite the same. sad days

solomute
Banned
181 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 am

i had it probably one of the best synthesized sitar sounds id ever heard until it crashed, and i never was able to get it quite the same. sad days
Sad to hear. Perhaps you should continue your experiments. Using IRs is a nice idea. Nebula has dynamic or call it multiple-in-one IRs which could be somehow used for implementation of SR between tracks. Currently they have issued harrison mixbuss emulating entire console, ie there are no obstacles for them to make SR between tracks. But I suspect they keep that niche for the future. For some years they will play with pianoteq project totally ignoring the thing in question and may be if our civilization is still alive they will take the burden. Once there was a project where one guy created SR scripts for kontakt piano libs. Then mysteriously the project was shut down. You can find his script in piano old lady kontakt which has no gui. The same thing can be implemented as intertracktial thing between different instruments but I bet there is taboo on that. They make only allowed things like pianoteq and I don't believe they are so silly that they have not thought about the possibility to make SR between tracks. There are hw SR modules and hw are not so powerful as pcs.
samplitude is the best daw for me. To have studio like sound before asking questions on any audio forums in the internet please read the book by alex unlocking fx creative potential

solomute
Banned
181 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:51 am

So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.
There are no obstacles to create intertracktial tunnels which is implemented in harrison mixbuss, sknote stripbus and other software consoles. Also I may agree that it's not necesarrily the daw's engine's duty to produce SR between tracks as all this can be implemented the same way as on the aforementioned consoles as optional vsts. The niche is non occupied and no one wants to earn money. Unbelievable unless we suspect that that process is controlled from above.
samplitude is the best daw for me. To have studio like sound before asking questions on any audio forums in the internet please read the book by alex unlocking fx creative potential

hugoderwolf
KVRist
176 posts since 1 Apr, 2009 from Bochum, Germany

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:59 am

solomute wrote: There are no obstacles to create intertracktial tunnels which is implemented in harrison mixbuss, sknote stripbus and other software consoles. Also I may agree that it's not necesarrily the daw's engine's duty to produce SR between tracks as all this can be implemented the same way as on the aforementioned consoles as optional vsts. The niche is non occupied and no one wants to earn money. Unbelievable unless we suspect that that process is controlled from above.
What are the "intertracktial tunnels" supposed to actually do? What do you think sympathetic resonance in a mixer should sound like?

Might be that you are imagining some kind of magic phenomenon that doesn't exist. The thing is, sympathetic resonance is not just about a couple of audio signals somehow interacting. It doesn't work without an instrument that resonates. And the way it resonates depends massively on what this instrument is and how it works acoustically and mechanically. In a piano for example, it depends on which keys are pressed.

That said, I think some company already made a piano reverb that sounds like a resonating sustain-pedaled piano. But that's about it. You could put something like that in the sum to get some kind of piano-style sympathetic resonance. For a more sophisticated approach, you'd need a similar thing, but one which you can feed MIDI to switch individual resonators on/off.

You could also experiment with long held piano chords as impulse responses in an IR reverb.

In essence: sympathetic resonance is for instruments, not for mixers.

cron
KVRAF
3067 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:02 pm

hugoderwolf wrote:You could also experiment with long held piano chords as impulse responses in an IR reverb.
You can get lovely sounds doing this.

Here's an example which crossfades across 10 IRs. The 10s IRs are all different plucked guitar harmonics, and the sound they're applied to is a scrambled, ring modulated guitar. The ring modulated guitar is completely inharmonic, so all the consonant resonances you hear are coming from the IRs.

https://soundcloud.com/chqtestsubjects/ ... on-example

JCJR
KVRAF
2342 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:49 am

BertKoor wrote:On a real drum kit, you'll hear the snares underneath the snare rattle when for instance the base player hits a note.
So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.

It's instruments interacting with each other because they are in the same room. A mixing engine can't do that :shrug:
Perhaps I was lacking in musical imagination, but ringing drums in recordings (or excessively ringing drums in live mixes) generally drove me nuts. Something to be avoided rather than intentionally added.

Maybe ringing toms could be fairly easy-- If toms were tuned well, so far as I recall they had a fairly pure fundamental tone. If not tuned well, they might have a fundamental tone with tremolo-like beat frequencies superimposed. Bwaw-waw-waw-waw.

So maybe if we want to De-Clarify an electric bass track by adding "well-tuned" ringing toms, then perhaps a simple parallel filterbank of high-Q ringing bandpass filters would do? One bandpass for each tom, tuned to whatever fundamental freq which each tom in the rack would be tuned at? For a rack of out-of-tune toms, perhaps we could get close with a pair of ringing bandpass filters per tom?

Perhaps ringing toms have some "gated" nonlinearity in response, just a wild guess. MAYBE a quiet note wouldn't have enough energy to get a tom going, so that they would tend to ring more on loud notes, and maybe ring little or none on quiet notes? Dunno, would be worth checking.

For a "better" simulation, maybe put each ringing filter thru its own SM57 mic model mixing all the mic simulations together with different time delays and inter-drum phase cancellations. And of course each tom mic model would not only be picking up a different time-and-phase mixed image of all the toms, but each tom mic model would be picking up a different time and EQ version of the bass guitar leaking into the tom mics. :)

So the electric bass signal is one track direct, one track miked amp, and many weird copies of the bass guitar leaking into the tom mics, along with the tom sympathetic ringing. Lets not forget the kick and overhead mics picking up different EQ, phase and delay copies of the bass guitar leakage.

Maybe modeling a ringing snare would be harder to do. Dunno. Maybe that is a more nonlinear system. OTOH if the snares rattle about the same pitch regardless what pitch they resonate against-- Haven't listened lately but it seemed that snare tended to make the same tone of sympathetic rattle regardless of stimulus note--

If that is the case, then maybe the Bass Guitar send could be rectified into a control envelope, then use that control envelope to modulate the volume up-n-down of a long looped rattling snare sample? Any time the bass is loud the snare rattle is loud and vice-versa.

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aciddose
KVRAF
11941 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:40 am

For the "non-linear" / "gated" apparent response of toms, this is actually just an extension of the same effect you get with the top+bottom skin being tuned or not.

The frequency of the stand the tom is mounted on as well as the wobbling of the tom relative to the stand, relative to the floor are all components that are either tuned or not and in-phase or out-of-phase with the skins themselves.

So it's a question of which frequencies happen to create a situation where all these resonances "line up" together both in-tune and in-phase. What you're really dealing with is a sort of comb-filter feeding into comb-filters feeding into comb-filters effect due to all these elements plus the room interacting together.

In other words the solution is a room reverb combined with the "pure" tuned filters to emulate the skins of the tom. It's also essential to keep in mind any non-linear effect of the skins themselves and the harmonic spectra produced: the skin will have a much more complex response than a simple single band-pass filter.

... and now you know why this isn't commonplace: it's extremely expensive to emulate in any reasonably realistic way simply due to the number of elements involved as well as the complexity of each individual element. Yes, 90% of the way there would be "it works, roughly", but 10%, 50%, 75% and 89% would be "doesn't work".

90% of the way there is already so expensive you might as well just take it all the way ... and build a studio, hire musicians and record your live takes, since all that stuff is probably significantly less expensive than years of R&D trying to implement software that may never pay off.

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Aloysius
KVRAF
22069 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from a computer

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:57 am

pathetic resonance
I didn't get where I am today ...

JCJR
KVRAF
2342 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Thanks aciddose. Excellent points so far as I know which isn't much. My thoughts on a "Bass De-Clarifier" plugin were in the devil's advocate vein, such as "Blowing up the moon is probably a very bad idea but if we did want to blow up the moon then maybe this would work..." :)

kamalmanzukie
KVRist
145 posts since 12 May, 2012

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:17 pm

solomute wrote:
i had it probably one of the best synthesized sitar sounds id ever heard until it crashed, and i never was able to get it quite the same. sad days
Sad to hear. Perhaps you should continue your experiments. Using IRs is a nice idea. Nebula has dynamic or call it multiple-in-one IRs which could be somehow used for implementation of SR between tracks. Currently they have issued harrison mixbuss emulating entire console, ie there are no obstacles for them to make SR between tracks. But I suspect they keep that niche for the future. For some years they will play with pianoteq project totally ignoring the thing in question and may be if our civilization is still alive they will take the burden. Once there was a project where one guy created SR scripts for kontakt piano libs. Then mysteriously the project was shut down. You can find his script in piano old lady kontakt which has no gui. The same thing can be implemented as intertracktial thing between different instruments but I bet there is taboo on that. They make only allowed things like pianoteq and I don't believe they are so silly that they have not thought about the possibility to make SR between tracks. There are hw SR modules and hw are not so powerful as pcs.
Using IRs is exactly what i did the first time. it took the place of actual drone strings but everything else was the same. but yeah, i dug the old thing up and with in an hour or so we have this:

(mp3 demo)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jTnJC ... IdvCmIUf6m

not too shabby if i do say so myself

kamalmanzukie
KVRist
145 posts since 12 May, 2012

Re: Sympathetic resonance

Post Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:42 pm

this ones a bit closer. all the things people say are hard to do are easy if you always fake it the entire way

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CyZPO ... scqL3bLpQD

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