how is 64 bit better?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
stratum
KVRAF
2114 posts since 29 May, 2012

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:15 am

I know one company which used to use COBOL software written in 1980's running on windows, possibly on MSDOS mode, until just 1-2 years ago.
~stratum~

mcbpete
KVRian
1270 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:20 am

Haha, yeah the logistics in some places are so convoluted it's sometimes best to just keep things as is. Here's an information screen at a bus terminal still rocking a Commodore 64 earlier this decade:

Image Image

PurpleSunray
KVRian
820 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:06 am

mcbpete wrote:
stratum wrote:Windows is not likely to drop any 32 bit support, otherwise COBOL compilers from 1990's wouldn't work. Big problem :lol:
Think that era was an even smaller number of bits (16-bit era), which I think was dropped circa Win 7
You can still run win16 apps on your Win10 after enabling NTVDM.
MS is not like Apple on that, they usually try to maintain backward compatiblity -> not very likely that MS will drop (without a way to still run it) 32bit support any time soon.

mcbpete
KVRian
1270 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:09 am

Alas NTVDM is no longer supported in 64-bit versions of Windows (which, if you're on Windows 10 is quite likely)

mystran
KVRAF
5032 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:18 am

mcbpete wrote:
stratum wrote:Windows is not likely to drop any 32 bit support, otherwise COBOL compilers from 1990's wouldn't work. Big problem :lol:
Think that era was an even smaller number of bits (16-bit era), which I think was dropped circa Win 7
Actually with 16-bit it's a case of 32-bit vs. 64-bit Windows rather than a specific version and there's a technical reason: 16-bit applications under 32-bit Windows (or any other 32-bit OS) used so called "vm86mode" of the CPU which emulates 16-bit "real mode" under 32-bit protected mode, but "vm86mode" is not available when you are running in 64-bit long mode (instead you have the 32-bit compatibility mode).

So.. basically supporting 16-bit applications directly under 64-bit operating system is "inconvenient" enough that it's just not worth it, especially considering any 64-bit CPU can run any MSDOS-era applications under an emulator like DOSBOX quite fast enough for most practical purposes.
If you'd like Signaldust to return, please ask Katinka Tuisku to resign.

quikquak
KVRist
424 posts since 6 Aug, 2005 from England

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:03 pm

mcbpete wrote:Haha, yeah the logistics in some places are so convoluted it's sometimes best to just keep things as is. Here's an information screen at a bus terminal still rocking a Commodore 64 earlier this decade:

Image Image
Haha, yeah some of us remember coding on 8 bit computers. Wow, that code was tiny, back when entire OSs were 32K bytes in size...

User avatar
whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
26282 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 am

quikquak wrote:Haha, yeah some of us remember coding on 8 bit computers.
Its surprisingly common these days.... ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."

User avatar
Guillaume Piolat
KVRist
182 posts since 21 Sep, 2015 from Grenoble

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:47 am

On x86, 64-bit code is usually up 5% to 15% faster when compared to the same 32-bit code.
- more registers
- because of this wealth of registers, different calling conventions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calli ... onventions
- the "red zone" optimization of the stack that only happen in 64-bit https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2011/09/0 ... on-x86-64/
VST/AU/AAX: Couture | Panagement | Graillon

User avatar
GaryG
KVRAF
5706 posts since 13 Jan, 2003 from Kent, UK

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:53 am

stratum wrote:I know one company which used to use COBOL software written in 1980's running on windows, possibly on MSDOS mode, until just 1-2 years ago.
We still have a couple of minor finance systems that are 16 bit DOS...

I inherited the support of them and the first call was that they wouldn't work with the new networked printer system we installed. After messing about with net use etc for a bit I actually looked into the app and saw there was a print to file option which generated the same info but as a csv file. I asked if that was an acceptable workaround and was told it would be great as the first thing they did with the printed report was manually enter the figures into a spreadsheet... :dog:
()_()
(O.o)
(")(")

User avatar
BertKoor
KVRAF
10788 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:33 am

COBOL can be compiled to 64bit without issues for quite some time already:
https://www.microfocus.com/products/visual-cobol/

8bit instructions won't ever die. Processor virtualisation & emulation is the answer. Never played old arcade games with MAME?

I also recall a friend of mine had a look at his pentium processor with a thermal camera, and could locate where the 16bit instructions of his DOS box were executed.

Technology is moving forward and there's nothing you can do about it. Not too long ago all TV broadcasts were in 4:3 aspect ratio with just 500 scan lines. Now nearly everybody has bought a flatpanel TV and the 16:9 aspect ratio in full HD is widely adopted in the market.

Same with DAWs, everything is getting bigger & better, and thus 64bits.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is back online!!

pc2000
KVRist
306 posts since 4 Apr, 2006

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:59 am

BertKoor wrote:Technology is moving forward and there's nothing you can do about it. Not too long ago all TV broadcasts were in 4:3 aspect ratio with just 500 scan lines. Now nearly everybody has bought a flatpanel TV and the 16:9 aspect ratio in full HD is widely adopted in the market.

Same with DAWs, everything is getting bigger & better, and thus 64bits.
Best possible comment! :band:

quikquak
KVRist
424 posts since 6 Aug, 2005 from England

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:32 am

Naaa, 128 and 256 bit processors will be much better... along with the memory cache.
Apple will redact all your old 64 bit stuff, and label it as slow and old, "...and the needle returns to the start of the song, and we all sing along as before..." :P

Miles1981
KVRian
1366 posts since 26 Apr, 2004 from UK

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:20 am

mystran wrote:
Miles1981 wrote:32bits instruction sets are more than 10 years old. They don't have any SIMD (more or less).
What exactly are you smoking?

All the SIMD extensions work perfectly fine in 32-bit mode and SSE2 even predates x86-64.
Indeed, my bad, I was stuck in a preOS support... Which happened a long time ago.

umd
KVRian
1049 posts since 26 Feb, 2006 from Fartland

Re: how is 64 bit better?

Post Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:26 am

zoogoo wrote:I dont understand why everyone is making 64 bit. How is it better? honestly performance wise, i cant tell the difference between my 32 bit daw and 64 Bit, both of which i use.

the jbridger is really buggy, Most of my fav vsts are 32.
64bit plugins are certainly better if you use plugins that use lots of RAM. Other than that, you won't notice any difference ( 32bit plugins can also do 64bit processing ).

The bridging stuff is not perfect ( 100% compatibility is an unrealistic goal ), but, I have been using it myself for many years ( and mostly for live performances ), and I certainly don't want it to be "really buggy".

If you can tell me how to reproduce any issues you're having I will gladly have a look. :ud:
Free midi plugins and other stuff:
http://jstuff.wordpress.com/

Return to “DSP and Plug-in Development”