Piracy Hurts

[Karbon L. Forms]

Are there really people who whip out their wallet when they can't find a crack?

Thought the same and especially in this price range ($249). Wow..

Jesus. I never looked at the price. How big's this fecking house he's after? lol.

[Zombie Queen]

Are there really people who whip out their wallet when they can't find a crack?

We are talking Kontakt instrument here, it doesn't need a crack as there is no CP. No risk involved. Whenever you get it, it's the same thing. It can bring a new light on spend vs don't spend decision, I guess. I have been doubtful as well, until I saw the effect.

[Zombie Queen]

Jesus. I never looked at the price. How big's this fecking house he's after? lol.

It noh funny. Again, this is not a VST, price if fairly normal for a big lib, these do not sell by thousands.

[Karbon L. Forms]

A quick google landed me on an NI blurb about NKI protection. K6 only maybe? Or is he bypassing NI? Is he not willing to pay for protection then? Surely using K opens up the market so much that it may be worth paying NI?

[Zombie Queen]

That's when you make the instrument Kontakt Player compatible, you get serial number and it activates via NI application, costs you a lot, so you need to be confident you will sell a lot to break even, it's a big gamble for a small dev. And still you can get pirated, though this time it would actually need a "crack".

[Topcheese]

@Topcheese: I think what Daniel James is doing is reacting to a very simple scenario. He has a product, it is selling well -> pirated version comes out -> the sales disappear -> he gets frustrated and posts what was quoted in the original post.

For a one man/small developer it really is that simple. Doesn't help much when you take huge established brands like Native Instruments as example. They too started out small way back then.. and I'm sure Stephan Schmitt has similar stories to tell from those days.

Some survive, some thrive even when under stress and many go under, never to be seen or heard from again.

I suspect the worse case scenario is a developer with only one or two niche products that keep them afloat only to fall victim of sudden drop in revenue due to piracy, which doesn't always target small niche products.

All of this is speculation on my part of course. My point is: It's worth trying to see this thing from the eyes of Daniel James instead of trying to rationalize harmful actions of others, using bad examples to trivialize the ordeal.

By all means what part did you miss where I said that I support piracy and where it is that I "rationalize" the truth? I can't help that the truth sometimes hurts, but that's the way it is. You can try and vilify the pirates and innocent bystander like me all you want, but that's not going to change it.

Like I said if that's the choice you've made to make your bed(dollars), then you just going to have to take all the bedbugs that might come along with where you make it. I'm sure we can both agree that people shouldn't be using pirated software, but that still doesn't stop the fact that people pirate and use it.

I no more condone it than you do, it's just that you want to whine and point fingers, and I try to look for solutions and ways to capitalize on the problem.

There's nothing else really to say on the matter.

awareness of how it can hurt others might discourage some people who don't think about piracy much and just do it 'automatically' because 'everyone else does it'

it won't deter the conscienceless, of course


anyway, people are probably angry at you because—bolstered by the enlightened objectivity which comes so easily to those completely unaffected by the situation—you first said that the guy was very arrogant to assume that his software was any good, then said he was acting dumb for being frustrated that people were pirating his software, when he should just take advantage of it as a publicity thing. then you said that he chose to accept piracy, implicitly, when he started software development, so he just has to put up with it.

basically you told a bunch of strangers that anyone who expressed any feelings on the issue at all—besides, perhaps, a cool intellectual disapproval—was stupid

sure, you're an innocent bystander, but if you don't understand why you got a backlash, then I don't know what else to say

What lack of awareness, and how many times do I have to acknowledge it before you understand that I'm not down for such illegal activities? I'm sure your browbeating will do the trick that a hundred anti-piracy solutions all fail at.

Why people are "angry" at me is just one of the misguided reasons for their own problems and not mine. Just like Dan some of you just can't wait the curse out the next person that even tries to mention the word.

Please show me the exact quotes, because it sounds like you reading your own feeling into my words.

you first said that the guy was very arrogant to assume that his software was any good, then said he was acting dumb for being frustrated that people were pirating his software

There's a difference between saying that software is good, and software being so good that people want to use a crack over paying for it. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

I never said the software wasn't any good, nor do you see anywhere I claim they were "dumb." That is your claim and not mine. I'm sure the more enlightened people realize that all I'm trying to say is that you can catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

I've been involved in the software industry in one way or another for over 30 years, and I'm hard pressed to recall a lot of successful project leaders using that language when referring to ANY user. I'm sure there may be some but I'm not so sure the language was as colorful. I'd like to think it's pretty obvious that I'm no expert, but just so you know that I know ... I'm just another person with a strong opinion.

What I told a bunch of strangers is that instead of trying to look at more ways of locking down and punishing all users for the "rampant" crimes of the pirates, why not take the money and resources, and use that to convert as many as you can by providing even more value to the product.

Now I can see how that last part might seem like I'm trying to trivialize it, but that's one of the main reasons we spend money is because we find value in a product. Yes pirates don't appreciate "value" the same way that you do, but pirated software just isn't the same as a well maintained and supported one.

Again I'm no expert, and I have to apologize to any of you that's a lot closer to being one than I am. I haven't really started my plugin yet, but it will be open-source when released, so I'm biased towards that. I really don't even see the need to pirate software, but I guess that just means you're popular.

I do get it though, and I'm not sure how many ways I can stress that enough. I mean that's like someone stealing your mate, then coming to you for free support and upgrades.

[mladi]

I feel the guy. Had the same in early January. I have been wondering why my YT videos shoot up by 1000% all of the sudden. Coincidentally sales dropped to null. So well, this is how it works. Maybe its best to sit it through. With soundware, there's really no way to defend it.

You literally say that (we) all became only real customers when we can't get a copy illegally? Sorry i don't believe that.

[Topcheese]

That's when you make the instrument Kontakt Player compatible, you get serial number and it activates via NI application, costs you a lot, so you need to be confident you will sell a lot to break even, it's a big gamble for a small dev. And still you can get pirated, though this time it would actually need a "crack".

I think NI is on top of the game, but this could end up being one of the sore points in a slow demise. As it is they've pretty much flooded an already flooded market, but they do have some quality first and third party products. That well will get dry some day, but in the meantime it's their bread and butter.

I feel for the 3rd party developers, and I'm sure some of them have invested quite a bit of money into the framework. It really does suck, but just look how popular Trackion/JUCE has become since open-sourcing it.
I know NI's not there yet. hahaha

[Topcheese]

I feel the guy. Had the same in early January. I have been wondering why my YT videos shoot up by 1000% all of the sudden. Coincidentally sales dropped to null. So well, this is how it works. Maybe its best to sit it through. With soundware, there's really no way to defend it.

You literally say that (we) all became only real customers when we can't get a copy illegally? Sorry i don't believe that.

Yeah it kind of irks me as well. I would even go so far as to say that if a lot of pirates had no access to commercial software, then they would flock to the many 1000's of free and open-source plugins available to them to hack.

With the computing power today I can chain/mix a bunch of free plugins together to achieve most of what I can do with a single commercial plugin. I'm just not that into the "in" crowd I guess!

[an-electric-heart]

Comment edited... can't be bothered.

[sleepcircle]

What lack of awareness

… how many times do I have to acknowledge it before you understand that I'm not down for such illegal activities?

… Please show me the exact quotes, because it sounds like you reading your own feeling into my words.

…I never said the software wasn't any good, nor do you see anywhere I claim they were "dumb." That is your claim and not mine.

I didn't say you were "down for it," i said you thought that nothing more than "cool disapproval" was appropriate for the situation; if i say that "you think cool disapproval is appropriate", then i cannot be saying that you approve of it. although, on that subject: if I am wrong, and you think more than cool disapproval is allowed, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.

Although speaking of misunderstanding, I THOUGHT you'd probably say something like 'I never literally used the actual word dumb, show my where in my posts.' I was going to pre-emptively ask you not to do that in my original post, but decided it'd be polite to give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, your attitude when you were addressing basically everyone in this thread was one of, as far as i can tell, intellectual self-satisfaction. i admit that's just 'my interpretation' but are you really not able to see how other people might've gotten the impression, from the way you've been talking since post 1, that you think you're smarter than most people here?

"I never never said his software wasn't any good" is just unnecessary hairsplitting. Meet me halfway, here. I am not arguing the quality of his software or whether or not it is good enough to pirate. I am explaining the general reaction that people had to you. Your first reaction to the tacit assumption that people were pirating his software instead of buying it was "that's very arrogant of you," implying that it was unwarranted self-confidence on his part to assume that people wanted his program that much. Regardless of the absolute level of goodness you may have MEANT TO IMPLY, your first reaction to the declaration that 'a crack comes out is responsible for a simultaneously drop of sales' was just "lol no way." and that is what most people saw.


Good grief, people place so much value on picking apart the exact syntax and words of people who disagree with them. I mean I understand it's good to be accurate, but I feel like at a certain point we reach a limit to the value it can actually add to a discussion. I can see where I might've had to explain the misunderstanding about how good you thought his software was, but did I really need to explain that i wasn't accusing you of being ok with piracy?


finally, awareness seldom hurts. sometimes it does, but even so: lots of people are under the impression that software piracy doesn't really affect anyone, or don't really think about the issue. what is self-evident to older people may not be self-evident to younger people who have been bombarded with mock-truisms and apathy since day 1.

[BlitBit]

Warning! Incoming car analogy!

Are there really people who whip out their wallet when they can't steal a car?

Thought the same and especially in this price range ($34999). Wow..

Waiting for the arguments about why in one case it's OK to use something for which you don't want to pay the price while in the other it's not.

Obligatory "Piracy Warning" video from TheIT Crowd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg

[Zombie Queen]

You literally say that (we) all became only real customers when we can't get a copy illegally? Sorry i don't believe that.

I didn't draw conclusions. I only said I understand the guy, because I have seen this scheme at work, in my quite little scale perspective. Might be just a double coincidence. What you make out if it is not my business.

[Topcheese]

@sleepcircle, I've pretty much spammed the thread enough with my opinion, but I definitely see your point. That's just too bad you don't seem to be trying to meet me halfway, since you're the one asking me to join you there. People do get things wrong, and I'm one of the first people to admit and apologize when I am wrong.

I'm leaving this conversation because you quote what you're thinking and not what I actually said. You want to talk about being ludicrous yet you imply that I said he's being arrogant just because people are pirating his software.

I think it's rather arrogant of any person that wants get them a boat by stepping into an industry to make money, without factoring loss-prevention in to that equation. I also think it's arrogant for any developer to think that their program is the holy grail to success, so that alone should get them a boat.

I'm not trying to knock any developer, and I do know that most of the time our best laid plans do work out. I'd like to know exactly how many other NI 3rd party developers "earned" their boats? I know blame it on the pirates.

There is no doubt a lot of money being lost on pirating, and there's no doubt it hurts. I can make lemonade out of lemons. I think sort of like what NI's trying to do with Sounds.com.
Anyways thanks for taking the time to correct me. I do tend to come off the wrong way sometimes, so I appreciate the feedback even though it may seem like I don't.

[sleepcircle]

i'm not blaming anyone. Re: meeting you halfway, i never even claimed you were wrong except about this:

Such arrogance is beyond me. Are they telling me their product is so good that they know for a fact how many are using it, and how many would actually pay for it if not pirated? At the very least it's presumptuous of them to say that.

I do not agree with you that it is arrogant of him to draw a connection between sales suddenly plummeting and a pirated copy of his thing coming out, especially if both of these happen within days of each other.


but besides that:

you are right there are multiple ways to deal with piracy besides restrictive copy-protection. you are right that it's bound to happen eventually, and that plans should be taken to prevent that. you are right that a business model should be built to stand up to the selfishness of human nature if it has any chance of succeeding.

but the topic was "here is an example of how drastically piracy can negatively affect something." you walked in, dishing out hot takes left and right, and then acted like people getting mad at you was completely unexpected somehow.

all i was saying, i guess, ultimately, is that attitude is extremely important.
you can be the rightest guy in the world but it won't do anyone any good if you can't communicate it to other people.