Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
5945 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:36 pm

BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
:dog: None of the problems were related to my internet connection but soley to Catalina.
Really? You were trying to download Catalina right? How can Catalina be at fault if you haven't installed it yet...
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
Searching for "list of broken things in catalina" spits out a bunch of reviews from users and troubles from devs even on the first page.
Of course it does, but that doesn't show the magnitude of any problem, it just show that an upgrade to an OS has caused issues for some people. I don't think the Google results live up to your hyperbole
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
You either aren't able to do proper research or just not wiling to. I'd say thanks for confirming your bias :wink: :clap: Didn't expect much after reading your posts in this thread, still got disappointed.
Ad hominems are not necessary. If you have nothing more to say, just end your thread at the point where you have made any points you have to make.

BlueprintInc
KVRist
98 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:41 pm

:wink:

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
18986 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.

XxEDxX
KVRist
41 posts since 31 Mar, 2019

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:06 pm

I'm glad we made backups of my wifes Macbook and had the chance to revert it. Felt like using a OS in early beta state. Definitely can't recommend upgrading to MacOS Catalina, no matter what Apple says how we should say it. Glad to see they know how big they messed up this time. On the other side I really hope no developer has to fear consequences for speaking up, now that Apple has the total control over it on their system.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1900 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.

Catalina is nothing new, Apple has been guilty of total rewrites of their OS forever, PPC to Intel, OS 9 to OS X. These were much bigger things than Catalina. What seems to be being forgotten in all this is the tie in with iOS, and how that's going to open up a whole new category of revenue for developers that simply will not happen as easy on the Windows and Android OS side.

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
817 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:07 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.
I'm sorry but you're very wrong, how they are whining if apple has a trending eliminating possibilities always? how their point is even bias if it is true and objective what they are saying and recommending?

The time being this OS decided to go around eliminating possibilities and capabilities absolute necessary for compatibility is the day when people should be aware that all of this has gone too far; shorting the lifespan of Vsts and ditching things because they can.

I respect you Hink and mods and I will respect the forum rules, is just that there should be awareness and I don't like the misinformation.
Last edited by JunSev on Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15243 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:16 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Not really knowing anything about coding or developing, so excuse my naivety. Why would this cause a recurring issue that broke on multiple updates? Is it such a difficult fix?

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15243 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:23 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.
Makes sense; or at least it would've done, at some point. But U-He is no longer a one-man operation. Even if all his team came from an OSX background, surely they would've learnt by their mistakes, and not be constantly at fault :shrug:

Markus Krause
KVRist
270 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

Update:

I received another email of Apple. Apple's support for developers was friendly.
Apple is definitely aware of their compatibility problems.
They offered me assistance to get past the notarisation process. This is nice, but not helpful in my case, because i was able to solve it for myself in the meanwhile.

--------

I also reported the two-year-old and critical bug with the auval tool (again) which requires users to reboot the Mac to make Audiounits visible in Logic.
I added references to make it clear that it does not only affect our software, but software from a vast range (all?) companies which create v2 Audiounits as well as nearly all users which use Audiounits.
https://forum.juce.com/t/installing-new ... erra/26753
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=531117
viewtopic.php?t=502437
https://gist.github.com/olilarkin/8f378 ... f47061d70f

The real problem will remain for developers as well as for the end users: It's the lack of downward compatibility of MacOS in the past and in the future

-----

Concerning the downward compatibility of Windows:

I got very good private contacts to a high-position Microsoft employee. She told me that Microsoft puts a huge effort in keeping Windows downward compatible. As a developer who is developing for Microsoft platforms since 1993 i can confirm this. I never experienced serious problems with compatibility since then.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

mystran
KVRAF
5491 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:06 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm
I got very good private contacts to a high-position Microsoft employee. She told me that Microsoft puts a huge effort in keeping Windows downward compatible. As a developer who is developing for Microsoft platforms since 1993 i can confirm this. I never experienced serious problems with compatibility since then.
I don't think many other companies on this planet have backwards compatibility as solid as Microsoft.

I mean up until they dropped DOS support with 64-bit Windows versions, they had SoundBlaster (which isn't even an MS product) emulation built into NTVDM just so you could have sound with your old DOS games, because that's what most of those expected.
If you'd like Signaldust to return, please ask Katinka Tuisku to resign.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1900 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:13 pm

JunSev wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:07 pm
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.
I'm sorry but you're very wrong, how they are whining if apple has a trending eliminating possibilities always? how their point is even bias if it is true and objective what they are saying and recommending?

The time being this OS decided to go around eliminating possibilities and capabilities absolute necessary for compatibility is the day when people should be aware that all of this has gone too far; shorting the lifespan of Vsts and ditching things because they can.

I respect you Hink and mods and I will respect the forum rules, is just that there should be awareness and I don't like the misinformation.
I am not trying to be rude here, but it's obvious that english is your second language. I can't comment because you're not being clear here.

I will say if you're a developer you would blame it on the english language. :lol:

machinesworking
KVRAF
1900 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:28 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm
As a developer who is developing for Microsoft platforms since 1993
Bingo. You know Windows like the back of your hand. I'm willing to bet you didn't code for mac until after the Intel transition at the earliest 2007 probably later. You have at the very least 13 more years coding Windows.
I received another email of Apple. Apple's support for developers was friendly.
Apple is definitely aware of their compatibility problems.
They offered me assistance to get past the notarisation process. This is nice, but not helpful in my case, because i was able to solve it for myself in the meanwhile.
Unfamiliarity breads contempt.

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
5945 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:04 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:13 pm
JunSev wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:07 pm
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.
I'm sorry but you're very wrong, how they are whining if apple has a trending eliminating possibilities always? how their point is even bias if it is true and objective what they are saying and recommending?

The time being this OS decided to go around eliminating possibilities and capabilities absolute necessary for compatibility is the day when people should be aware that all of this has gone too far; shorting the lifespan of Vsts and ditching things because they can.

I respect you Hink and mods and I will respect the forum rules, is just that there should be awareness and I don't like the misinformation.
I am not trying to be rude here, but it's obvious that english is your second language. I can't comment because you're not being clear here.

I will say if you're a developer you would blame it on the english language. :lol:
I think he's conflating technologies he would like to see in MacOS with those that are absolutely necessary for compatibility with something he doesn't specify.

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
817 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:35 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:13 pm
JunSev wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:07 pm
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:59 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)
This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.
Yep, because Urs started off on OS X writing AU plug ins.
Meaning, he's very familiar with OS X, and doesn't experience it as a second language the way he does Windows. This is why 90% of the whining developers do on OS X, or visa versa, I write off. It's blatantly obvious that people unfamiliar with an OS will have issues that people that started tinkering with it right around puberty will not have. It's a form of confirmation bias, and just because you can code a fantastic plug in doesn't mean you're not capable of it.
I'm sorry but you're very wrong, how they are whining if apple has a trending eliminating possibilities always? how their point is even bias if it is true and objective what they are saying and recommending?

The time being this OS decided to go around eliminating possibilities and capabilities absolute necessary for compatibility is the day when people should be aware that all of this has gone too far; shorting the lifespan of Vsts and ditching things because they can.

I respect you Hink and mods and I will respect the forum rules, is just that there should be awareness and I don't like the misinformation.
I am not trying to be rude here, but it's obvious that english is your second language. I can't comment because you're not being clear here.

I will say if you're a developer you would blame it on the english language. :lol:
Is not my first language but I know for sure you get everything what I'm saying, even if you hate it and need to make some joke about my english (and some other people need to fill the thread with memes because hates what's being said here), but I'm not here to discuss with you, I will present facts as long that there is misinformation in the road.

With all respect.

User avatar
syntonica
KVRian
545 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:36 pm

Came for the new programming language promised in the title, stayed for the comedy gold. :lol:

I'm staying on Mojave for now, both as a musician and as a programmer. Since I had to return my programming laptop I had borrowed that was running Mavericks, I only today ported over my code installed Xcode 9 and the latest Eclipse with Java JDK8 (to go along with me JDK6 that I keep hidden from Oracle so they don't delete it) and got everything up and running as it was previously. Xcode 9 seems to be the last version that plays nicely with legacy and I can still compile for Snow Leopard on up. This laptop is now frozen at Mojave as I have some legacy 32-bit stuff I wish to hang onto, both in VST and programming.

I'm just going to warn end-users that if they go Catalina, my software might work. Or it might not. They'll just have to manually okay it to run as I'm not a member of the Borg--er, Apple collective and I'm not about to shell out $100/year for some masochistic "privilege" to have my software poked, prodded and autographed by some bot. Since I'm not creating and installing kext files, which really should be signed, there shouldn't be any issue.

I can understand the anger out there with the way Apple suddenly drops things, but it's not like we didn't know 32-bit was going away, or OpenGL is going away, or PPCs were going away, or Carbon was going away... Well, you get the idea. They do tend to give plenty of time for developers to rework their code. I'm sure the majority of you are ASL (Apple as a second language). I'm WSL and you should hear me swearing when I'm trying to solve a simple problem with their infuriatingly random 16-bit API (yes, it really is that old). Sailors get the vapors and faint dead away!

I do wish Apple would just sandbox their old technology so older software still worked, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ what can you do? It's their sandbox, I'm just playing in it.

I will jump on the auval bandwagon, though, and say they really, really, really need to fix the damned thing as it affects a huge chunk of their business, both audio and video. I get bit by this all the time, even having filed a bug report only to discover the second time I dumped my cache, rebooted and ran auval and rebooted again, it finally worked. Color me embarrassed when I had to write back and apologize for the spurious report. I did blame it all on Apple though. :hihi:

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