Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
57213 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:53 am

jethrobull wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:48 am
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:44 am
vurt wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:43 am
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:41 am
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:32 am
Image
I’d take an Apple fanboi/grl over a Tesla fan any day of the week.
the f**k did nikola do to upset you?
is it the vampyrism?
I don’t have the energy to reply.
:lol: Christ this thread is entertaining as hell.
or is it?

User avatar
Michael L
KVRAF
3000 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:55 am

Oranges the new Apple
To be or not to be?
Bb

Markus Krause
KVRist
333 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am

I changed the title of the thread


Here are some facts about Catalina:


1) Apple did drop 32 bit support. All 32 bit plugins and every other 32 bit software has stopped working. It is also not longer possible to use a bit-bridge.

2) Old song projects which use 32 old bit plugins can not longer be loaded.

3) With Catalina Apple introduced 'software notarisation'. Apple advertises that this technology should enhance security, however it is easy to bypass for hackers.

4) By default it is now not longer possible to install older software which is not notarized or signed

5) Existing software, especially plugins which are not code-signed and are currently still working because of a 'grace period' might soon stop working. It is currently unknown when this grace period will end.

6) With Catalina MacOS is not longer an open platform. The notarisation gives Apple the complete control over all software which is running on their systems. If they do not like a developer or product they can simply discontinue the development contract (costs $99 per year) and the developer is not longer able to distribute software on this platform.


Further facts:

7) Apple tagged OpenGL as 'deprecated' and introduced 'Metal'. A massive number of plugins (espcially those with a resizeable GUI) use it. It is currently unknown when OpenGL will be dropped completely and the plugins will stop to operate.

8.) The Audiounit validation is buggy since several years now. It is not been fixed by Apple. As a result plugins are not detected by Logic. The user first has to reboot the computer or the developer has to include a hack (a shell script which forces a restart of the validator) to the installer.

9) Apple quickly deprecates technologies. With every new OS update there is a significant chance that the plugins of various developers and songs can not longer be loaded.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
7540 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple's language police tells developers what they should write to the customers

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am

vurt wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:53 am
jethrobull wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:48 am
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:44 am
vurt wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:43 am
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:41 am
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:32 am
Image
I’d take an Apple fanboi/grl over a Tesla fan any day of the week.
the f**k did nikola do to upset you?
is it the vampyrism?
I don’t have the energy to reply.
:lol: Christ this thread is entertaining as hell.
or is it?
Good question!

Kr3eM
KVRist
468 posts since 1 Sep, 2007

Re: Apple's language police tells developers what they should write to the customers

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:04 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:55 am
or to a lesser extent Markus starting this thread, just to whine.
Really? I would call you out for actually being the one that's whine when you make statements like that.
I can't see anything unreasonable about the him starting this post. I however can see your statement to declare that you know the actuall intent Markus have/has with this thread being childish and whiney if anything.

Even if you happen to be right doesn't make the points or the infromation invalid just because it's not delivered in a fashion you approve of. If I were to discern anything remotley like whining in his starting post it would be the quoted email from Apple.

I for once appreciate him sharing this information and his views in on point manner. To be honest, Markus made 2 post (EDIT: I missed the third when writing this) so far which basicly are the most on topic in this thread, meanwhile almost everybody else is declaring this thread a meme war.

Nobody see a problem with Apple now (if I understand correctly) have full control over the software run on Catalina with the notarisation and can choose to make it impossible for any developer to sell their product? (retorical)
Have this in mind and read the mail from Apple what language to use. It's probably not intended to sound anything than a friendly suggestion but when the one suggesting it has the power to cripple or destroy you livelyhood it does put it in a different light.

MrBauer
KVRist
51 posts since 5 Apr, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:07 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am
I changed the title of the thread


Here are some facts about Catalina:


1) Apple did drop 32 bit support. All 32 bit plugins and every other 32 bit software has stopped working. It is also not longer possible to use a bit-bridge.

2) Old song projects which use 32 old bit plugins can not longer be loaded.

3) With Catalina Apple introduced 'software notarisation'. Apple advertises that this technology should enhance security, however it is easy to bypass for hackers.

4) By default it is now not longer possible to install older software which is not notarized or signed

5) Existing software, especially plugins which are not code-signed and are currently still working because of a 'grace period' might soon stop working. It is currently unknown when this grace period will end.

6) With Catalina MacOS is not longer an open platform. The notarisation gives Apple the complete control over all software which is running on their systems. If they do not like a developer or product they can simply discontinue the development contract (costs $99 per year) and the developer is not longer able to distribute software on this platform.


Further facts:

7) Apple tagged OpenGL as 'deprecated' and introduced 'Metal'. A massive number of plugins (espcially those with a resizeable GUI) use it. It is currently unknown when OpenGL will be dropped completely and the plugins will stop to operate.

8.) The Audiounit validation is buggy since several years now. It is not been fixed by Apple. As a result plugins are not detected by Logic. The user first has to reboot the computer or the developer has to include a hack (a shell script which forces a restart of the validator) to the installer.

9) Apple quickly deprecates technologies. With every new OS update there is a significant chance that the plugins of various developers and songs can not longer be loaded.
That's the real facts. :tu: Let's add that

10) free plugins will vanish because their hobby devs will not spend 100 bucks a year to buy the necessary signing and notarization stuff.

11) their "improved" security already makes 3rd party copy protection unsecure or even fail.

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
7540 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:11 am

Image

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
9128 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:15 am

Are you pretending to be fun? :roll:

Or are you failing at finding arguments?

Do you even realize it's Apple people (fanboys) that are in the position you describe?
Fernando (FMR)

Tilly
KVRist
51 posts since 18 Feb, 2019

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:19 am

OP should have put that it's for developers and Forgotten would be offended by other opinions and play the sheriff then like yesterday. But without that it's his battlefield of trolling :shrug:

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15401 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:23 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am
I changed the title of the thread


Here are some facts about Catalina:


1) Apple did drop 32 bit support. All 32 bit plugins and every other 32 bit software has stopped working. It is also not longer possible to use a bit-bridge.

2) Old song projects which use 32 old bit plugins can not longer be loaded.

3) With Catalina Apple introduced 'software notarisation'. Apple advertises that this technology should enhance security, however it is easy to bypass for hackers.

4) By default it is now not longer possible to install older software which is not notarized or signed

5) Existing software, especially plugins which are not code-signed and are currently still working because of a 'grace period' might soon stop working. It is currently unknown when this grace period will end.

6) With Catalina MacOS is not longer an open platform. The notarisation gives Apple the complete control over all software which is running on their systems. If they do not like a developer or product they can simply discontinue the development contract (costs $99 per year) and the developer is not longer able to distribute software on this platform.


Further facts:

7) Apple tagged OpenGL as 'deprecated' and introduced 'Metal'. A massive number of plugins (espcially those with a resizeable GUI) use it. It is currently unknown when OpenGL will be dropped completely and the plugins will stop to operate.

8.) The Audiounit validation is buggy since several years now. It is not been fixed by Apple. As a result plugins are not detected by Logic. The user first has to reboot the computer or the developer has to include a hack (a shell script which forces a restart of the validator) to the installer.

9) Apple quickly deprecates technologies. With every new OS update there is a significant chance that the plugins of various developers and songs can not longer be loaded.
Ok! Facts are good :tu:

Sounds like a lot of reasons for developers to stay away from MacOS. I also get why you'd prefer Mac owners to migrate than for you to risk losing business by just ditching Mac support. If such migration were to happen in any significant amount, it would likely take more time than is going to make any difference to your current plight.

Should be interesting to see how it plays out, though :tu:

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5212 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:32 am

So which are the Tone2 products not going to Catalina other than the obvious suspects like Warmverb? I thought I saw a list earlier but it seems to have been deleted?

I can run Warmverb on a slave PC if I need to but I'm not wild about doing the same for Icarus 2 – I might as well stick to a different wavetable synth.

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
7540 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:34 am

Image

No_Use
KVRAF
2416 posts since 13 Mar, 2004

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:35 am

MrBauer wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:07 am
10) free plugins will vanish because their hobby devs will not spend 100 bucks a year to buy the necessary signing and notarization stuff.
Yeah. Admittedly I've only released a single (free) Win/Mac plugin so far (which presumably isn't that popular either :oops:) but I can say for sure I won't pay the money for the 'privilege' to keep it working on MacOS.

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15401 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:41 am

No_Use wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:35 am
MrBauer wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:07 am
10) free plugins will vanish because their hobby devs will not spend 100 bucks a year to buy the necessary signing and notarization stuff.
Yeah. Admittedly I've only released a single (free) Win/Mac plugin so far (which presumably isn't that popular either :oops:) but I can certainly say I won't pay the money for the 'privilege' to keep it working on MacOS.
This is definitely a downside. However, this has pretty much always been the case i.e there being a large barrier-to-entry for Mac development - The need to own a Mac for development purposes. That's why there are so many free Windows goodies unavailable to us MacOS users.

Markus Krause
KVRist
333 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:51 am

Currently we in the lucky situation that we're not in a plight.
Currently all our synthesizers work as expected in Catalina. However they might require an update when the grace period ends. There is currently no statement from Apple when this will be.
We will provide free updates if a newer synth / effect should discontinue to work.

However 3 older products will not longer be available for MacOS. It is not possible to make them compatible with a reasonable amount of work. That's why they will not longer be available in our shop in the future.

I will not longer recommend MacOS to our customers. The end users (sometimes not even the developers) know when a product will stop to operate. In my eyes this is unacceptable if you're working within a professional production environment.

----

We can guarantee Catalina support for these products:

Icarus2
Electra2
Nemesis
Saurus2
Gladiator3
UltraSpace
Akustix

These products are not compatible with Catalina:

FilterBank
BiFilter
Warmverb Multi-FX
Last edited by Markus Krause on Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

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