Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15399 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:11 am

HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 am
One of the core strengths on Windows is compatibility.
It is at the moment, but you have no way of knowing if that will continue into the future. It will be interesting to find out how far Microsoft would be willing to forego tighter security in favour of letting musicians tinker with 'One Ping Only' :wink:

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15399 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:13 am

0degree wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:07 am
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:03 am
As to "unless MS does something similarly stupid.". Do you mean perhaps Microsoft might wish to ditch their OS' reputation for being a bit of a security nightmare by forcing developer's releases solely through their already-established app-store? Seems almost inconceivable :wink:
Yes, that's more or less what I meant :)
A fiver says it will happen, and sooner than you think :hihi:

steve.lindqvist
KVRist
231 posts since 20 Jan, 2019

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:18 am

May I ask again why are there developers who don't have any difficulties and already provide their customers with a full working and compatible software (e.g. Celemony or Ableton)? How come that developers like U-he even welcome the new operating system?
While I could not care less for notarisation (the big thing that some developers whinge about), I have always been in favour of enforcing code signatures. From Catalina on, developers are required to add an extra step in their build system which requires a few extra seconds on release builds - this step was officially required for, I don't know, 10 years already...? It also requires a paid Apple developer membership (which is a lot cheaper than developing for Windows using the "official" tool chain). As a result, the OS and the host software can verify if a plug-in was tampered with (malware, cracks).
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=533329

User avatar
thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
25693 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:11 am
HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 am
One of the core strengths on Windows is compatibility.
It is at the moment, but you have no way of knowing if that will continue into the future.
True, but you have no way of knowing that it won't. Judging by past performance there is no reason to doubt that Windows will change their approach. As it is I can open projects I started 15 years ago on Windows XP. I understand this is not the case on MacOS.

BlueprintInc
KVRist
100 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am

steve.lindqvist wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:18 am
May I ask again why are there developers who don't have any difficulties and already provide their customers with a full working and compatible software (e.g. Celemony or Ableton)? How come that developers like U-he even welcome the new operating system?
Some just pretend they have no problems, some have a big team to fix all the things with no hassle, some use other build systems/libraries/mechanics within their plugins, some have just different viewpoints, some spent all their spare time since the beta came up to work on it, ... so many things that could be. Fact is that the majority of devs that are stating anything at all, have struggles, some may be in pain silently, some may have no problems at all. But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version and some things knowingly will break in another version (like the mentioned OpenGL support).

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15399 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am

BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am
steve.lindqvist wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:18 am
May I ask again why are there developers who don't have any difficulties and already provide their customers with a full working and compatible software (e.g. Celemony or Ableton)? How come that developers like U-he even welcome the new operating system?
Some just pretend they have no problems, some have a big team to fix all the things with no hassle, some use other build systems/libraries/mechanics within their plugins, some have just different viewpoints, some spent all their spare time since the beta came up to work on it, ... so many things that could be. Fact is that the majority of devs that are stating anything at all, have struggles, some may be in pain silently, some may have no problems at all. But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version and some things knowingly will break in another version (like the mentioned OpenGL support).
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
7394 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:19 am

BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am
But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version
Such as...?

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15399 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:29 am

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:11 am
HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 am
One of the core strengths on Windows is compatibility.
It is at the moment, but you have no way of knowing if that will continue into the future.
True, but you have no way of knowing that it won't. Judging by past performance there is no reason to doubt that Windows will change their approach. As it is I can open projects I started 15 years ago on Windows XP. I understand this is not the case on MacOS.
I can open Logic projects from 12 years ago; further, if I still had copies of my old Logic 5 PC sessions.

And while it's true that i have no way of knowing that they won't strive to keep Windows as some 'old faithful', I think the landscape of computing is changing so rapidly, and everything is moving to cloud-based services, app-stores and subscriptions (Microsoft are already well into that space for consoles, media and software.

You have to remember that the up 'n' coming user-base of Microsoft have been born into a world of Google Play, and other app-stores. There will be no resistance from them. I just don't see them being able to avoid the lure of security, and the level of control that following in Apple's footsteps will afford them, to keep the old guard happy. But yeah, it's just an opinion :shrug:

perpetual3
KVRian
1143 posts since 28 Sep, 2012

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:59 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:23 am
Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am
I changed the title of the thread


Here are some facts about Catalina:


1) Apple did drop 32 bit support. All 32 bit plugins and every other 32 bit software has stopped working. It is also not longer possible to use a bit-bridge.

2) Old song projects which use 32 old bit plugins can not longer be loaded.

3) With Catalina Apple introduced 'software notarisation'. Apple advertises that this technology should enhance security, however it is easy to bypass for hackers.

4) By default it is now not longer possible to install older software which is not notarized or signed

5) Existing software, especially plugins which are not code-signed and are currently still working because of a 'grace period' might soon stop working. It is currently unknown when this grace period will end.

6) With Catalina MacOS is not longer an open platform. The notarisation gives Apple the complete control over all software which is running on their systems. If they do not like a developer or product they can simply discontinue the development contract (costs $99 per year) and the developer is not longer able to distribute software on this platform.


Further facts:

7) Apple tagged OpenGL as 'deprecated' and introduced 'Metal'. A massive number of plugins (espcially those with a resizeable GUI) use it. It is currently unknown when OpenGL will be dropped completely and the plugins will stop to operate.

8.) The Audiounit validation is buggy since several years now. It is not been fixed by Apple. As a result plugins are not detected by Logic. The user first has to reboot the computer or the developer has to include a hack (a shell script which forces a restart of the validator) to the installer.

9) Apple quickly deprecates technologies. With every new OS update there is a significant chance that the plugins of various developers and songs can not longer be loaded.
Ok! Facts are good :tu:

Sounds like a lot of reasons for developers to stay away from MacOS. I also get why you'd prefer Mac owners to migrate than for you to risk losing business by just ditching Mac support. If such migration were to happen in any significant amount, it would likely take more time than is going to make any difference to your current plight.

Should be interesting to see how it plays out, though :tu:
I've been tempted to pick up a Surface Book or awhile now, but I quite enjoy the Apple ecosystem and am really averse to change. For my use cases, there are very few indispensable tools that would compel me to transition to Windows.

BlueprintInc
KVRist
100 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:
Can't say much besides all we need to fix for a Windows update was HDPI. So far none of the windows updates broke anything which they havn't fixed by another quick update themself.

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:19 am
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am
But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version
Such as...?
Let's start from a user perspective by installing it: download corrupted or failed with missing network access at 95 to 99% a couple times (even though I copied a successfully downloaded file from a friend); install hang on "settings up your mac" multiple times with me starting to fix things in the terminal and suddenly after finishing it the bluetooth keyboard wasn't recognized anymore. Putting in one with a wire the login failed because my password was "incorrect". iCloud doesn't work properly anymore; there are a dozen permission dialogs coming up every hour where I can't even see what permission it wants for what; same for totally non descriptive error messages; I had missing codecs for files which worked nicely with itunes.

From a plugin developer perspective: auval is more broken than before; it's pure luck if the notarization works - the same script for the same binary sometimes works and fails in another try (it was a pita to setup it up at all because none of the ways other devs made it, worked here); the default xcode compiler chain was broken until I had to manually rewrite plists, permissions and flags; our copy protection failed and then got more insecure due to certain inter process communication, narrow sandboxing and mac internal optimizations.

Only things that happened to me within a short period of time. If you ask google, I'm sure you'll find many more complaints. There's a reason why devs send out warnings. Doesn't always have to be because of their own software.

Btw I've learned coding on Macs years ago, I've worked with it in audio industry and I've also seen the rapid downfall of it.

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15399 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:17 pm

BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:
Can't say much besides all we need to fix for a Windows update was HDPI. So far none of the windows updates broke anything which they havn't fixed by another quick update themself.
Are you suggesting that Urs has misrepresented the issues?

BlueprintInc
KVRist
100 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:22 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:17 pm
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:
Can't say much besides all we need to fix for a Windows update was HDPI. So far none of the windows updates broke anything which they havn't fixed by another quick update themself.
Are you suggesting that Urs has misrepresented the issues?
I am saying that I have no clue how his build chain works, on what OS specific things his code relies and on which exact version those errors occured. I could only speculate but that's something for other people to do.

spinmeister
KVRer
15 posts since 28 Sep, 2006

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:15 pm

This article seems to paint a less pessimistic picture (seems that most of the non-kernel signing restrictions are just defaults and easily overridden):

https://eclecticlight.co/2019/06/15/wil ... -catalina/
Windows is my main music making environment
OS X and iOS are my main daily computing platforms
Linux is my main server environment

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
7394 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:21 pm

BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:
Can't say much besides all we need to fix for a Windows update was HDPI. So far none of the windows updates broke anything which they havn't fixed by another quick update themself.

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:19 am
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am
But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version
Such as...?
Let's start from a user perspective by installing it: download corrupted or failed with missing network access at 95 to 99% a couple times (even though I copied a successfully downloaded file from a friend); install hang on "settings up your mac" multiple times with me starting to fix things in the terminal and suddenly after finishing it the bluetooth keyboard wasn't recognized anymore. Putting in one with a wire the login failed because my password was "incorrect". iCloud doesn't work properly anymore; there are a dozen permission dialogs coming up every hour where I can't even see what permission it wants for what; same for totally non descriptive error messages; I had missing codecs for files which worked nicely with itunes.

From a plugin developer perspective: auval is more broken than before; it's pure luck if the notarization works - the same script for the same binary sometimes works and fails in another try (it was a pita to setup it up at all because none of the ways other devs made it, worked here); the default xcode compiler chain was broken until I had to manually rewrite plists, permissions and flags; our copy protection failed and then got more insecure due to certain inter process communication, narrow sandboxing and mac internal optimizations.

Only things that happened to me within a short period of time. If you ask google, I'm sure you'll find many more complaints. There's a reason why devs send out warnings. Doesn't always have to be because of their own software.

Btw I've learned coding on Macs years ago, I've worked with it in audio industry and I've also seen the rapid downfall of it.
You must have had a seriously screwed up system before then as I can't find any significant evidence of your issues (and dude seriously? You're going to try to say problems with your internet connection are down to Apple? :lol: ) doing as you suggested and using Google, and you can't include notarization as something broken as that's by design.

Devs may have sent out warnings, but there's little in the way of broken plugins from the majority of users who upgraded (nothing broke on my system and everything went fine).

Not sure why you think things are "heavily broken" as there's not really much evidence of that using your suggestion of Googling it.

BlueprintInc
KVRist
100 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:21 pm
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:18 am
F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them), troubles with OS upgrades are clearly not just a Mac issue :shrug:
Can't say much besides all we need to fix for a Windows update was HDPI. So far none of the windows updates broke anything which they havn't fixed by another quick update themself.

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:19 am
BlueprintInc wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 am
But there are things that are heavily broken in this os version
Such as...?
Let's start from a user perspective by installing it: download corrupted or failed with missing network access at 95 to 99% a couple times (even though I copied a successfully downloaded file from a friend); install hang on "settings up your mac" multiple times with me starting to fix things in the terminal and suddenly after finishing it the bluetooth keyboard wasn't recognized anymore. Putting in one with a wire the login failed because my password was "incorrect". iCloud doesn't work properly anymore; there are a dozen permission dialogs coming up every hour where I can't even see what permission it wants for what; same for totally non descriptive error messages; I had missing codecs for files which worked nicely with itunes.

From a plugin developer perspective: auval is more broken than before; it's pure luck if the notarization works - the same script for the same binary sometimes works and fails in another try (it was a pita to setup it up at all because none of the ways other devs made it, worked here); the default xcode compiler chain was broken until I had to manually rewrite plists, permissions and flags; our copy protection failed and then got more insecure due to certain inter process communication, narrow sandboxing and mac internal optimizations.

Only things that happened to me within a short period of time. If you ask google, I'm sure you'll find many more complaints. There's a reason why devs send out warnings. Doesn't always have to be because of their own software.

Btw I've learned coding on Macs years ago, I've worked with it in audio industry and I've also seen the rapid downfall of it.
You must have had a seriously screwed up system before then as I can't find any significant evidence of your issues (and dude seriously? You're going to try to say problems with your internet connection are down to Apple? :lol: ) doing as you suggested and using Google, and you can't include notarization as something broken as that's by design.

Devs may have sent out warnings, but there's little in the way of broken plugins from the majority of users who upgraded (nothing broke on my system and everything went fine).

Not sure why you think things are "heavily broken" as there's not really much evidence of that using your suggestion of Googling it.
:dog: None of the problems were related to my internet connection but soley to Catalina. As I said the download fail error even came after copying the completely downloaded installer image from a friend. The clean install of High Sierra before ran smooth. Don't you think that as a software developer I'd know at least a bit on how to troubleshoot? :wink:

Searching for "list of broken things in catalina" spits out a bunch of reviews from users and troubles from devs even on the first page. You either aren't able to do proper research or just not wiling to. I'd say thanks for confirming your bias :wink: :clap: Didn't expect much after reading your posts in this thread, still got disappointed.

Return to “DSP and Plug-in Development”