Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

DSP, Plugin and Host development discussion.
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Are you in?

Hell yeah!
70
49%
Let's try and revisit in a few months!
26
18%
I'm scared! Users would crucify us! :)
7
5%
No, I'm fine with what Apple does!
40
28%
 
Total votes: 143

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"you rebel scum".

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Do you think he finds our lack of faith disturbing?

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I say we get a Ouija board and go straight to Steve Jobs with our demands. I know he no longer has direct control of the company, but I bet he could haunt the hell out of them.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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zerocrossing wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:02 am I say we get a Ouija board and go straight to Steve Jobs with our demands. I know he no longer has direct control of the company, but I bet he could haunt the hell out of them.
there are several apps for that :)

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vurt wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:47 pm
zerocrossing wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:02 am I say we get a Ouija board and go straight to Steve Jobs with our demands. I know he no longer has direct control of the company, but I bet he could haunt the hell out of them.
there are several apps for that :)
If you own MBP 2020 already you don't need any apps for that.

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I think if any dev were being HONEST they would tell you that they would much prefer not to have to support OS X. However, as long as a good chunk of users continue to choose Apple as their music production platform, we don't really have a choice.

Catalina is just the latest in a long list of decisions by Apple that make development on their platform more frustrating than it needs to be. I could ramble on about each iteration of OS X having it's own set of library and frameworks rendering backwards compatibility nearly impossible, or the dead languages they keep pushing (Objective C and SWIFT) that get shoved into their proprietary, unnecessary plugin format (Audio Units), the weird cryptic BUNDLE file system (including plists, rsrc files, ENTRY_POINTS, and separate GUI bundles), Cocoa, or any number of poor decisions and hurdles Apple throws at independent developers.

But the greater point is this; these all might seem like minor pesky things, and indeed most of them are. The problem I have with it though - and I get confused when users aren't bothered by this - is that it's all really just symptomatic of their business model, which is adapt or die. Upgrade or die. Buy all our new stuff or die. Conform to whatever our whims might be or die. Their operating system is designed so that you (essentially) have to buy new hardware from them when they (eventually) brick your old hardware and software through updates. This was proven beyond a doubt when they were caught doing exactly this with iPhones a few years back. Hell, iPhones don't even come with headphone jacks anymore because they want to either sell you airpods or they want you to die. I can't even upgrade the RAM in my Mac Mini because it's soldered to the board; buy a new computer or die. Or, you can do what lots of Apple users appear to do; never update your operating system and milk your computer for 10+ years. This puts 3rd party developers in a tough spot; We are supporting older versions of OS X, most of which aren't cross-compatible and contain randomly deprecated functions and libraries, when Apple themselves only officially support the last couple of iterations of their Operating System. And when your software doesn't work with Mountain Lion, users don't blame Apple, they blame you.

When does this get to be too much and not worth it? My answer is, when they eventually make it impossible to install software that's not sold through the APP store. When Apple eventually tries to take 30% out of my pocket - and you know it's going to happen - that's when I tap out, that's when a lot of people tap out, and it's not something that's outside the realm of possibility; music plugins are one of the few pieces of software that people aren't selling and buying through the App store. Apple wants their 30% cut, and I think they will get it eventually. As a company, they are really, really good at exploiting every crevice of profitability. Until then, I'll continue to grin and bear it, and ride with whatever grenades get tossed my way, because this is my livelihood, frustrating as it may be.

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the circle is now complete

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It is time for you to leave Grasshopper

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(padawan is more apt given "alliance" obvs its star wars not "kung fu") [this time]

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adammonroe wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pmThe problem I have with it though - and I get confused when users aren't bothered by this - is that it's all really just symptomatic of their business model, which is adapt or die. Upgrade or die. Buy all our new stuff or die. Conform to whatever our whims might be or die.
Because I'm not sure you are talking about the same users. Sure, a major part of Apple's business comes from people upgrading hardware every year, but this is the side of the market subject to this general increase in throw-away consumerism. You think Apple are the only phone sellers able to gouge nearly $1000 every year from user's wallets. Same with tablets, smartwatches etc.
The people who actually need a sense of stability in their hardware and software are in the music and video production worlds. And yes, we tend to stick to what works. And I'll empathise with the hoops you have to jump through; That is, until you start with the same "Mac users are..." prejudice as many others.
adammonroe wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pmHell, iPhones don't even come with headphone jacks anymore because they want to either sell you airpods or they want you to die.


Yup! A f**king idiot move for most of us (Especially us mobile iOS musicians). However, it's a very cheap dongle fix. And, of course, many other companies are also following suit :shrug:
adammonroe wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pmOr, you can do what lots of Apple users appear to do; never update your operating system and milk your computer for 10+ years.
Or, like me, keep a 2012 Macbook Pro almost completely current. I'm only holding on for Catalina because I want to have everything at my disposal. As soon as all my plugins make the grade, I'll jump in.

But I'm not milking anything. It's still an excellent performer.
adammonroe wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pmWhen does this get to be too much and not worth it? My answer is, when they eventually make it impossible to install software that's not sold through the APP store. When Apple eventually tries to take 30% out of my pocket - and you know it's going to happen - that's when I tap out, that's when a lot of people tap out, and it's not something that's outside the realm of possibility;
There are advantages to having someone handle the front-end, I guess. That's why developers sign up with Plugin-Alliance, and why others seem to have absolutely no issue signing up for the Mac AppStore. Whether all of that justifies 30%, will be for each developer to decide. But 70% of a possibly much bigger pie is still something that might be worth considering, Like in Dragon's Den: I remember quite a few would-be entrepreneurs walk away from huge deals. One of the dragons would be all like, "I'm gonna make you richer than you ever imagined, but I want 49% of the company"..."Oooh no, Peter! I swore to myself I wouldn't go any higher than 3%". 51% of a huge f**k-off pie is better than 100% of a very little one.
adammonroe wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pmmusic plugins are one of the few pieces of software that people aren't selling and buying through the App store.
And yet the iOS Appstore has had developers doing just that. Moreover, given how it's been no big secret that Apple is moving towards a fusion of iOS and MacOS, it's definitely encouraging to see, more recently, companies such as Audio Damage, PSP, FabFilter, and ToneBoosters staking their claim.

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el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 pm And yet the iOS Appstore has had developers doing just that. Moreover, given how it's been no big secret that Apple is moving towards a fusion of iOS and MacOS, it's definitely encouraging to see, more recently, companies such as Audio Damage, PSP, FabFilter, and ToneBoosters staking their claim.
Unfortunately you have to buy the same software you already own twice or even 3 times then because they're only available via the specific app stores on mobile. I remember the shitstorm threads e.g. over at the fabfilter forum about that.

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Magnut wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:15 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 pm And yet the iOS Appstore has had developers doing just that. Moreover, given how it's been no big secret that Apple is moving towards a fusion of iOS and MacOS, it's definitely encouraging to see, more recently, companies such as Audio Damage, PSP, FabFilter, and ToneBoosters staking their claim.
Unfortunately you have to buy the same software you already own twice or even 3 times then because they're only available via the specific app stores on mobile. I remember the shitstorm threads e.g. over at the fabfilter forum about that.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that those who owned the plugins on Mac/Pc expected them for free on iOS?

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el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:25 pm
Magnut wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:15 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 pm And yet the iOS Appstore has had developers doing just that. Moreover, given how it's been no big secret that Apple is moving towards a fusion of iOS and MacOS, it's definitely encouraging to see, more recently, companies such as Audio Damage, PSP, FabFilter, and ToneBoosters staking their claim.
Unfortunately you have to buy the same software you already own twice or even 3 times then because they're only available via the specific app stores on mobile. I remember the shitstorm threads e.g. over at the fabfilter forum about that.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that those who owned the plugins on Mac/Pc expected them for free on iOS?
Yes and I actually think too it should be like that. You buy the *same* software again for which you already paid (like in case of fabfilter a good) amount of money. It's just another supported OS and especially with AUv3 you don't need to do any extra work. And in those threads the devs wrote they would give it for free to customers or with a big discount but they simply have no other choice than to sell it via different app stores.

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Magnut wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:30 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:25 pm
Magnut wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:15 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 pm And yet the iOS Appstore has had developers doing just that. Moreover, given how it's been no big secret that Apple is moving towards a fusion of iOS and MacOS, it's definitely encouraging to see, more recently, companies such as Audio Damage, PSP, FabFilter, and ToneBoosters staking their claim.
Unfortunately you have to buy the same software you already own twice or even 3 times then because they're only available via the specific app stores on mobile. I remember the shitstorm threads e.g. over at the fabfilter forum about that.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that those who owned the plugins on Mac/Pc expected them for free on iOS?
Yes and I actually think too it should be like that. You buy the *same* software again for which you already paid (like in case of fabfilter a good) amount of money. It's just another supported OS and especially with AUv3 you don't need to do any extra work. And in those threads the devs wrote they would give it for free to customers or with a big discount but they simply have no other choice than to sell it via different app stores.
Well. I have no issue buying things on different formats, and have specifically done so with OSX and iOS. Maybe that's one of the things that will change when the MacOS and iOS become more homogenised.

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Guess it is somehow offtopic but so far as I can recall I've never bought anything from either Apple appstore, Microaoft appstore or Google appstore. By intention because I don't care to encourage such practices in any way by anybody.

Will occasionally buy from Amazon but that just saves a trip to Walmart. Different deal than a captive customer base.

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