Is your music better or worse than this?

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
cron
KVRAF
3421 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England

Post Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:19 am

Back from the dead once again!

Better or worse? Better... or worse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wvdl9EWcwI

ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:52 am

cron wrote:Back from the dead once again!
Thanks for helping keeping it going. I have a feeling this will last for years. In any case, I thought that I had responded to your last post, but, it seems that I only responded in my head. I'll get back to that in a bit, I'm a bit busy today.

...and the wheels keep turning...

kbaccki
KVRAF
2446 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Post Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:07 pm

ghettosynth wrote:Here's something a little different.
That's pretty cool...

I like my music... with my chords and my vsts and my little MIDI notes... but in a ironic twist I don't think I'm as creative as Kutiman... I swear I don't know how he has the patience and capacity to do this stuff...

Might be my favorite Kutiman... esp how he fits in the rap @1:45...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsBfj6khrG4

Another favorite... vocoder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i88CKr6Shn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAvS0pc9NIw

Lil' world techno... @1:50...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JffZFRM3X6M

This is nice... very pretty composition...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-reS4pYM8do

Chorus hook and changes are almost by design... I mean it's uncanny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP8VABF5pk

Another masterpiece... guitar solo @3:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoHxoz_0ykI

Pretty cool @1:50...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIl4LkHYRkg


Actually, I have no real interest in creating a mashup like that, other than stringing some audio loops together for my own purpose.. but his musical creativity is truly musically inspiring, IMO.
You need to limit that rez, bro.

Vortifex
KVRAF
2492 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:35 pm

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Last edited by Vortifex on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:44 pm

Vortifex wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Here's something a little different. It's not bad, in fact, it's pretty excellent, but, is it really "great" techno? I'm not convinced. If he wasn't playing this live, I don't really think that the audio alone would keep my attention. That's just my take though, I'm pretty judgey about techno. In any case, it's certainly not bad by any means and it's cool as shit, but, does the method matter, or the performance, or just the outcome? Is your techno better or worse than this? If it's worse, how does it make you feel that he does things the hard way? Does this inspire you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p0CGOoN7J0
That was honestly so bad I would have thought it was satire if it wasn't on the Boiler Room official channel. I don't care how inventive his method was, if it sounds terrible then it's not worth the bother.
Well, I largely feel that way about many live techno acts. I give him more credit than I do most modular synth performers. The thing is though, not everyone agrees with that. I've certainly heard worse live sets and I can appreciate the wonky minimalism.

Still, I think that it's interesting to talk about. How about we dispense with good vs bad and ask, is it more or less techno than your own efforts? Does his use of machinery make it interesting and forward thinking, or is it somewhat backward? Is this something of a one trick pony cum bad joke taken too far?

Keep in mind that I do like live techno when it's good. I just don't often think that it often is. From the perspective of "is this a live techno set" though, then I think that we have to answer yes, it's certainly purely the guiding of machines making music. I do think that there are some bad spots during the set and the set has moments. It's also clearly not going to be main-floor sort of material.

Vortifex
KVRAF
2492 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:39 pm

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Last edited by Vortifex on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

jancivil
KVRAF
23602 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Vortifex wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Here's something a little different. It's not bad, in fact, it's pretty excellent, but, is it really "great" techno? I'm not convinced. If he wasn't playing this live, I don't really think that the audio alone would keep my attention. That's just my take though, I'm pretty judgey about techno. In any case, it's certainly not bad by any means and it's cool as shit, but, does the method matter, or the performance, or just the outcome? Is your techno better or worse than this? If it's worse, how does it make you feel that he does things the hard way? Does this inspire you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p0CGOoN7J0
That was honestly so bad I would have thought it was satire if it wasn't on the Boiler Room official channel. I don't care how inventive his method was, if it sounds terrible then it's not worth the bother.
"basically a series of loops" does not bode well.
I'm hearing a looped bad edit, and that bad edit recurring is the most interesting thing in this astonishingly monotonous aural fecal pile, 3 - no, 4 - minutes in. It's bad by any means, why anyone will say it is good is beyond me. It's bullshit, it strikes me as someone with no talent or ability at all but able to get over on people by the sheer idea of the supposed medium; the technology? I must note I do not find this any evidence of mastering any tech particularly. I only imagine someone that, having made the sloppy edit hearing it looped saying to himself, 'That's fecking cool, tho! (like we'll go with that as though it's content)'.
So it's getting over because it's bullshit. Nice!
Last edited by jancivil on Mon May 31, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jancivil
KVRAF
23602 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:28 pm

kbaccki wrote: as creative as Kutiman...
[...]
Chorus hook and changes are almost by design... I mean it's uncanny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP8VABF5pk
I don't quite get why that's even in here, it's not fringe, it's probably not in doubt as good.
I think it's very good, very musical. I don't care a lot for the pretentious string quartet gesture at the end, but hey, that's like aesthetics, man. Nice song, interesting treatment. In the beginning the drummer's enthusiasm seemed a little like some acting, but that's not unusual either.

kbaccki
KVRAF
2446 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:40 pm

jancivil wrote:
kbaccki wrote: as creative as Kutiman...
[...]
Chorus hook and changes are almost by design... I mean it's uncanny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP8VABF5pk
I don't quite get why that's even in here, it's not fringe, it's probably not in doubt as good.
I think it's very good, very musical. I don't care a lot for the pretentious string quartet gesture at the end, but hey, that's like aesthetics, man. Nice song, interesting treatment. In the beginning the drummer's enthusiasm seemed a little like some acting, but that's not unusual either.
The question is whether or not my music is better or worse than X. I'm suggesting that my music may not be as good as the music made by some very creative person who can go find a collection of 20 or so totally unrelated youtube clips and make an entire, complex arrangement out of them, complete with lyrics, and vocals, and counterpoint, and harmony, and strings, and horns, and whatever else. It's a level of creativity to aspire to, IMO.
You need to limit that rez, bro.

ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:56 pm

Vortifex wrote:I think the method of production is immaterial for the listener (unless they're a fellow music nerd). What matters is what comes out of the speakers.
Of course though, this is the argument often made for DJs vs live acts. Here, of course, I'm really only talking about in the context of contemporary electronic music, but I think that you get that.
More or less techno than my own efforts? Well, that's a matter of style or genre, not quality. I guess it was techno. Was it good techno? Not really. I mean, it's certainly unique, and props to the guy for being creative in a very interesting way. But no-one's going to play that when they're in the mood to settle down and listen to some techno.
Well, maybe, but, people are playing it now on the youtube channel. So it becomes reasonable to ask if the visual aspect of the performance changes the equation? It wouldn't be interesting at all without the sound, hence, the art is both aural and visual at the same time.

I might like it more than you do, I like wonky minimalism and I think that the exaggerated wow adds something to it. Even given that though, I think that there are some bad moments in there, and I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't pay for the record.

But I did pay for this years ago and it's still a dope record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM1mN91YDgw

I might pay for Graham's records though, so long as he put the production effort into them, even given that they were initially live mechanical recordings, I don't know. Sometimes the "organic techno" thing works for me, sometimes it doesn't. In some way I think that the chosen mechanism might be the limiting factor. That is, I think "mechannical techno" itself could be much more interesting given more interesting source machines than the turntable.
I won't go so far as to say I can do better. It's like Damien Hirst's cow in formaldehyde, or Tracy Emin's 'Bed'. People look at them and scoff, "Call that art? I could do better!", but it was Hirst and Emin who had the creative vision to come up with the idea in the first place.
Right, but, now you're talking about it as art, taking into account the method in the discussion. Anyway, I could drone on, but I'm trying to foster conversation in this thread so I'll just stop here.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:19 am

So here we go, is this better or worse techno than the Graham Dunning video posted above? Has he played "Boiler Room", if not, why not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amoewMRz7LU

ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:36 am


ghettosynth
KVRAF

Topic Starter

13134 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:57 am

cron wrote:Thanks for the correction Jancivil. I'd assumed Xenochrony predated hip-hop, but 1979 puts us pretty much on a level with hip-hop's emergence (and indeed only a scant few years before semi-affordable sampling). Great to get your perspective as our resident Zappa expert.
does the method matter, or the performance, or just the outcome?
I've actually butted up against these issues with this exact guy.

I'm involved with a DIY initiative called The Dead Albatross Music Prize, originally started due to dissatisfaction with The Mercury Prize, and as of two years ago fully 'its own thing' rather than an explicit Mercury alternative (with shortlist announced the same day, awards show the same night etc).
Interesting, thanks for sharing that.
On a more personal level, I was huuugely into methodology when I was a serious, intense young man in his early-20s. My big thing was tracks made entirely from a single sample or object, that particular avenue reaching its peak/nadir when I made a miniature entirely from a 5-millisecond click hand-drawn in a wave editor ( https://archive.org/download/KieronJohnson/Pop.mp3 ). I also had countless little inflexible quirks around my working method - things like having a 100% audio workflow when sequencing, with no real-time elements at all. If I was using plug-ins, I'd have a separate DAW open, record whatever I needed live while recording to disk, then import it into the main DAW. While most of the tracks I made in that period do stand up well without knowing the methodology IMO, I felt strongly that they lost something without it at the time.

Although I'm much more relaxed these days, there are a lot of things that are kind of hangovers from that time. I still do most of my sound processing in non-real-time environments like CDP, and there are certain types of music I won't make because I just don't find the methodology satisfying. Certain strains of experimental music - music which sounds experimental but is actually about as experimental as having a shit in terms of how familiar I am with the methodology and how easy I find it to produce.
I definitely feel you on this. I wish the seemingly endless users of paulstretch that make it onto the drone zone would pick up on this, but, I digress.

All the other experimental stuff on my Soundcloud is something unexpected that 'popped out' during a process rather than something 'fully' composed-through, and while they may hardly be called fully formed, at least they're genuinely experimental. https://soundcloud.com/charityqueen/no-i
But, isn't this just "a" definition of "experimental?" If we think about a different method of composition, say some algorithmic method, and then employ that method to "fully compose" a piece, isn't that "experimental?"

Maybe I should just ask, what does "experimental" mean to you?

Vortifex
KVRAF
2492 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Post Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:05 am

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Last edited by Vortifex on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

nordickvr
KVRian
1418 posts since 29 Sep, 2013

Post Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:57 am

jancivil wrote:
kbaccki wrote: as creative as Kutiman...
[...]
Chorus hook and changes are almost by design... I mean it's uncanny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP8VABF5pk
I don't quite get why that's even in here, it's not fringe, it's probably not in doubt as good.
I think it's very good, very musical. I don't care a lot for the pretentious string quartet gesture at the end, but hey, that's like aesthetics, man. Nice song, interesting treatment. In the beginning the drummer's enthusiasm seemed a little like some acting, but that's not unusual either.
Indeed really good.
Was quite surprised to see Tony Miceli playing the vibes here.
Discovered him some times ago browsing the net.
Serious player!

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