Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

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herodotus
KVRAF
5515 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:52 pm

Over the past 14 years at kvr, I have seen controversial topics in great number come and go. But for the most part these topics tend to be recycled over and over again:

Analog versus Digital (recording media);

Analog versus Digital (synthesis);

Analog versus VA;

Vinyl versus mp3;

Real Guitar amps and effects versus emulations;

Loops are for kiddies and losers;

and of course we can't forget:
______(insert popular developer) should never have sold out to _______ (insert hated buyer);

Anyway, it struck me that never once have I seen a single flamewar, or even a flame skirmish, concerning Real versus Sampled Drums, which is unfair to drummers in general, and to me in particular, as it denies me the ability to weigh in on both sides of a contentious issue.

So anyway, to get things started:

Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance, and people who think that they can are just plain wrong.

That ought to do it.

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jancivil
KVRAF
16903 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:47 pm


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jancivil
KVRAF
16903 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:12 pm

herodotus wrote: Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance, and people who think that they can are just plain wrong.
What is the point of the 'Real Drum performance'? Free improv? Are we really going to have the sound of the drums exploited, the acoustical space idealized and tuned to get the most out of it?
If so, how many people can do this or even approach it? But wait, if it's a *good* samples library, this happened. So, you're making a record of some kind. All records with drums are recordings of drums; therefore all records use sampled drums. They're not real drums, they're impulses coming out some speakers.

Image

So, what are we replacing? Can anybody tell at the end of the day?
And if it's a music that is intent on improvisation, what will be wrong with using a zen drum controller and playing the drums?

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herodotus
KVRAF
5515 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:08 pm

jancivil wrote:
herodotus wrote: Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance, and people who think that they can are just plain wrong.
What is the point of the 'Real Drum performance'?
You're right, we need some balance:

In 99% of songs, Sampled Drums do the job every bit as well as the real thing. Plus, what if you live in an apartment?

Winstontaneous
KVRian
1483 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:28 pm

herodotus wrote:
jancivil wrote:
herodotus wrote: Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance, and people who think that they can are just plain wrong.
What is the point of the 'Real Drum performance'?
You're right, we need some balance:

In 99% of songs, Sampled Drums do the job every bit as well as the real thing. Plus, what if you live in an apartment?
Plus samples won't:
- blow off rehearsals
- lose you a year-long every-weekend gig when they decide to play too loud in a different style just to be a d!ck
- neglect to tell you they aren't gonna show up for a gig and didn't book a sub
- hit on your girlfriend in front of you

Real drummers have done all these things to me! :help:
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t3toooo
KVRAF
1915 posts since 25 Dec, 2005

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:15 pm

Drummers are mean.

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pljones
KVRAF
6387 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:20 pm

As a drummer, I have to say sampled drums are not as expressive as real drums - but a lot of that is down to the e-Kit itself and that sampling is only as detailed as it needs to be to max out an e-Kit. But you can adapt to that and still get a lot of feel out of a well sampled drum kit (with a good hi-hat, particularly...). (If I were a good drummer, I'd declaim cymbals more, too -- cymbals tend to be horrendously overlooked: the samples get big very quickly, so you end up with little detail... again, mostly you can live without it but it's quite audible.)

So, generally, sampled kits are good enough. If you think you need better, record a real kit. Simples.

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Aloysius
KVRAF
22787 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from a computer

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:05 am

Birds of a feather flock together. Musicians should play together. Drummers should be somewhere else with their own kind.
Never buy something you don't want just because it's a bargain.

JerGoertz
KVRAF
2225 posts since 20 Feb, 2004

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:21 am

Can a real drummer make a reverse kick drum? Huh? Huh? Can they?

Ergo real drummers suck.
A well-behaved signature.

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herodotus
KVRAF
5515 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:39 am

Aloysius wrote:Birds of a feather flock together. Musicians should play together. Drummers should be somewhere else with their own kind.
I agree.

Image

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AsPeeXXXVIII
KVRist
388 posts since 17 Aug, 2015 from Finland

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:46 am

Sampled drums do admittedly have their benefits - especially for those too poor to afford a drummer/studio/whatever to do live drums - but nothing beats the sound of a real kit.
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jancivil
KVRAF
16903 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:49 am

I remember so well doing gigs where I was the drummer - it was most of what I did in this one act - using the Yahama RX15. It really is not that convincing a module in itself but I suppose people weren't that sophistimacated back then. People wondered where the drummer was. I was seated at a little desk with a black box. Also a lot of records sounded like that in 1986 and such anyway.

In those days I lived with a drummer. Extremely talented individual but he was SLOPPY. There was a band central to the experience of the house but I would hijack people and do projects out of it. I never used that drummer. Seems like this was part of what made me... find some money and buy the Yamaha.

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jancivil
KVRAF
16903 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:53 am

pljones wrote: So, generally, sampled kits are good enough. If you think you need better, record a real kit. Simples.
I've recorded drums. It's not better than anything I have in BFD. I would alter that to read, if you can record drums better than what happens at FXpansion for BFD2 or BFD3 maybe do that if you have all the time in the world and you have all these resources to do that.

Let's have a poll and find out how many of us that is, here. :hihi:

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jancivil
KVRAF
16903 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:55 am

I have to say, this isn't much of a war.

:x

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Hink
Rad Grandad
27864 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:06 am

jancivil wrote:I remember so well doing gigs where I was the drummer - it was most of what I did in this one act - using the Yahama RX15.
I still have my old rx-17, I use to layer the floor drum with the snare to get some oomph from the snare

edit: excuse me, tom 2 with the snare
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