Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
37240 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:23 am

whyterabbyt wrote:
vurt wrote:where do you stand on ursine appendages?
mostly on the ursine feet.
well, thats neat, thats neat ...

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12055 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:29 am

aciddose wrote:They do, which is why 16ths or 8ths hats in electronic music sound so electronic. If you listen to any live kit/synth you should notice 8ths and even quarters almost always occur during the decay of the cymbal (hihat or otherwise) and the difference even between a "real live tr-808" vs. a single sample is well known and acknowledged in the computer music scene.

Just like recreating an authentic tr-808 requires some modelling and many samples or a tr-808 cymbal pulses + filters synthesis process, real cymbals require exactly the same thing.

It is very easy to tell when a single sample has been used and yes, it is very common but it clearly sounds worse than many samples or a real "live" drum machine.

Why would the same not apply to real cymbals? It clearly does unless you're using a single sample like a tr-909 or similar where the effect is intentional. I would argue that if you were to take any real tr-909 recording and replace the hihat track with multiple samples, it would instantly sound way better. I'm not talking subjective tastes or anything like that, I'm talking clear and obvious differences.

The majority of the most popular electronic music uses layered cymbals, often with many different samples and sounds and these are used differently at different points in the track to add interest. Only rarely do you hear popular music (chart toppers) where you have a loop with consistent un-modulated cymbals played over and over throughout the track, even in rap and r&b.

If you listen carefully, even in instances where the hihat sounds very similar you should notice small variations in intensity, attack and decay. The authors of this music take great pride in producing the ideal "loop" with these sorts of variations tweaked to perfection. I would argue that this attention to detail is what often makes a significant difference between the unskilled and unknown vs. those who are most successful.

That said, we're not talking about that in this thread, not even close. Would you use a tr-909 in a country track?
I think it is often masked by different volume, even Xpand2 seems to have at least two different samples for many drum sounds, triggered by velocity. And each sample is velocity sensitive in a linear fashion as well, so it allows for rather authentic playing.
What helps a lot with hihat is when the closed one can terminate the open one.

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aciddose
KVRAF
11960 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:06 pm

The best way to handle it is actually to use a foot pedal as the pedal input, and trigger the sound with a single note/trigger (as the stick, or multiple for variable stick position). Then you don't need to worry about a mutex (mutually-exclusive) group because that is inherently the case. In addition, the pedal is continuously variable which allows you to produce those rivet-like timbres where the top/bottom hat bounce together during the decay.

That said, most implementations are samplers with trivial mutex group functionality because this allows more complex layering of sounds.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
37240 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:47 pm

jancivil wrote:
vurt wrote: you wanna make idiots dance?
Not so much.

correct answer!
win 200 imperial credits!!!!

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vurt
addled muppet weed
37240 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:49 pm

aciddose wrote:The best way to handle it is actually to use a foot pedal as the pedal input, and trigger the sound with a single note/trigger (as the stick, or multiple for variable stick position). Then you don't need to worry about a mutex (mutually-exclusive) group because that is inherently the case. In addition, the pedal is continuously variable which allows you to produce those rivet-like timbres where the top/bottom hat bounce together during the decay.

That said, most implementations are samplers with trivial mutex group functionality because this allows more complex layering of sounds.

isn't the mutex gene what gave us the xmen?


no, i know. x-gene.

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aciddose
KVRAF
11960 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:54 pm

I thought it was used to mute your ex?
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
26130 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:48 am

vurt wrote: isn't the mutex gene what gave us the xmen?
Its the gene that gave us the Origins travesty Deadpool.


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"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."

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vurt
addled muppet weed
37240 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:33 am

whyterabbyt wrote:
vurt wrote: isn't the mutex gene what gave us the xmen?
Its the gene that gave us the Origins travesty Deadpool.


Image
:tantrum:

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vurt
addled muppet weed
37240 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:34 am

aciddose wrote:I thought it was used to mute your ex?

nope, that's a "shot-gun".

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