Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3391 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:58 am

And Jace and Hink. Since I am a researcher in special needs education I am the last person at KVR that would mind your OT. Would be more than happy if you could benefit from each other and you have my deepest sympathy, of course. There is cyber space enough around for all of it. Even the crazy Turkey/Europe discussion.
Last edited by IncarnateX on Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

tapper mike
KVRAF
4905 posts since 20 Jan, 2008

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:21 am

So let me get this straight. You don't want callouses on your fingers so you don't want to play guitar but those who are willing to go through the process of learning the guitar which includes callouses are snobs because they accepted it would be hard work and painful. When I got my first guitar I had to wash dishes professionally at a high volume restaurant. My hands were in soapy water 7-8 hours a day. It hurt like hell trying to practice after a long shift of work but I did it anyway because I didn't accept excuses for myself.

You have a violin but you are having issues developing bowing technique. Yet I'm assuming you have an internet connection fast enough to watch youtube videos. Before I started playing guitar many friends said they'd teach me. (back in the 70's) However once I actually started they were too busy practicing with bands to give me the attention I could have really used. So I'd sit and I'd watch then I'd go home and try to play what they were playing. If I didn't have my head up my arse so far I could have saved a lot of time in my development by paying a local teacher at a local music shop. Which I eventually did. Not having a teacher didn't stop me from trying to learn things on my own. Even without a teacher I was able to go to the local public library and check out books learning to read notation and figuring out songs by playing them over and over again as well as having songbooks. Yes still going to high school and washing dishes I made the time to make it happen so.. I'm a snob. I'd take every opportunity that came my way to play out live even if it was in a park where the only audience was squirrels and birds to build my confidence for playing in public. If I had any talent it was the talent of hard work. Yet I'm the snob. Soon thereafter if someone wanted me to back them up in a band or duet I'd only turn it down for time constraints. I was less concerned about holding onto an ideal of what I wanted to play and more concerned with playing well regardless of the genre. I play jazz, I love jazz and regardless of the skills I seek out be they on the guitar or other instrument or the styles available I try to keep my mind open and dedicate myself to expanding my skills. If there is something I can gain by studying hiphop or edm or some other style then I'll try it I'll work through it. Right now I'm using melodics as courseware to sharpen my grid performance skills. Yes I bought the course-ware, the reason is that the best investment I can make to making music is in myself.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3391 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:26 am

n/m
Last edited by IncarnateX on Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12922 posts since 5 Jun, 2012

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:32 am

An expert in making electronic music also has to study a lot, manuals for instance :hihi: And when the person is musically talented, the electronic music they make will likely be good.
Some electronic music makers are at the same time good keyboard players when they record their stuff live so to speak. Some of them were probably good keyboard players before they entered the electronic music scene.

Having said that, I do understand a certain disrespect for people making boring music by putting bars in the piano roll. Let's call them piano rollers :hihi:

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Bombadil
KVRAF
2707 posts since 31 Aug, 2013 from Far From the Twisted Reach of Crazy Sorrow

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:36 am

Well, if anyone dares tell me a DJ is a musician, I'd guffaw in his face. I suppose that makes me an elitist snob.

AFAIC, it comes down to what makes one happy., and how motivated one is to attain that happiness. It made me happy to play guitar until my fingers throbbed. I achieved a level of competency I never thought I would. When I see people smile, their eyes glistening, when I see little kids look at what I can do as if it were an amazing magic trick, all of that effort seems worth it. If someone can be happy laying down beatz, then more powah to them. Not my thing, though.
“We're an Anarcho-Syndicalist commune”
Dennis

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:46 am

jancivil wrote:For _ Conservatory of Music, or for Berklee School for that matter, you don't go for this unless you're a competitive personality; because getting in is competitive. Staying in is moreso. There is nothing wrong with this. It does not amount to sociopathy through itself. It's healthy, even.
I can appreciate this. I've never taken well to competitive people, and that is one of many reasons I've been averse to subjecting myself to such environments. Only once, due to my personality being meddled with by psych drugs, have I seriously considered entering a school for such competitive work (OIART, audio production, in London Ontario). I'm still not sure if I'm better off having chosen the sociopathic work environment that wrecked me, rather then an environment of high stress and competitiveness (and the considerable bank loan to go there)...

But yeah, I don't see competitiveness as inherently unhealthy. I just know that many people take it too far, and that competitive environments statistically tend to attract people with problematic social behaviors. I don't intend to demean or pathologize every person who ever demonstrated competitiveness.

Also, it could merely be that a person not well suited to interfacing with competitive personalities is apt to take the experience more personally or be bothered by it more (definitely I'm an example of this, and my self-awareness has protected me from jumping into such environments, except when I was modified by psych drugs).
jancivil wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:Struggle tends to make the average person demand that everyone else struggles the same way/amount they did. When most people see someone else having some kind of success (or sharing an opinion) without clear indication of having earned it through hard work, well, there's often attitude.
Well, in music school there is no faking it.
Have you ever encountered someone like me in such a place? As in, they had a learning disability that ended up driving them out, despite a sincere interest in the education?
jancivil wrote:There are people, I have to suppose from my Music History Professor, who decide on an academic thrust but you have to write your theses in order to get the requisite piece of paper to be there.
So it's kind of a twist on "those who can, do; those who can't, teach"... by adding: "except not when teaching requires proof of actual ability". (?)

The number of poor educators I've encountered has taught me that ability in the subject matter doesn't necessarily translate to ability instructing in that subject. Sometimes this can work out for the better when an instructor really is much better at conveying knowledge than they are at executing their skills in a competitive market.

Sad that the above good scenario was not what my usual experience had been with instructors (more often it was incompetent instructors who don't know the subject matter because they could fake the qualifications, often because of incompetent or cheap-ass management).
jancivil wrote:OTOH in the performance major, back then (world has changed since) you could bring other skills to bear.
Do you mean that demonstrating an aptitude for performance might allow a person to get by with deficits in other areas?
jancivil wrote:My guitar professor was 'Associate Professor' status who had some bona fides organizing this and that and being people's faithful assistant and being in the scene for a long time, not because she was some great player.
But was her instruction skill what it needed to be? Per the thread: did you observe any elitism in people who were aware of their own limits? Some people who are aware of their limits can go to one of two extremes: be self-destructively humble, or be defensively/offensively arrogant.

Students, I'd expect, would be all the more apt to have such extremes, since they're probably made to feel they're competing against each other (more than any instructor would need to compete against their workplace peers).
jancivil wrote: I have no evidence of frauds from my experience, though.
Good to hear. I met a few in a local art program. It was all marketing, not actual ability. Management fostered it because they were the exact same. They weren't competing with other art programs; they were competing with local "business schools" (themselves major cases of fraud).

This management attitude was revealed when the head of the art program stepped down so he could teach for his last few years prior to retirement. He was replaced by a social-engineering-type; a political game player (who's own photography work is... not up to standard).

I got blacklisted there for fighting against the destruction of the art program. The corporate elitism was far more problematic than any artistic or intellectual elitism (among a bunch of eccentric artist-instructors, it was probably inevitable that some social dysfunction would occur). They succeeded in pushing out two very skilled photography instructors over their qualifications on formal documents. Ine instructor had already published two well-regarded textbooks on black & white photography, but management used the fact of his formal education being in another field as an excuse not to hire him as a full professor. The scheme was really to replace "outdated" mediums with the new fads (lip service and marketing). The plot required disassembling the entire art department and sabotaging the actual value it represented.
jancivil wrote:So what I saw here, and this is not per the OP necessarily, was this old resentment of people who do more. I don't know what their struggle was, but I know what it takes to compete in order to get yourself into place in an environment conducive to the most growth.
I don't think it was easier for anybody unless it was by dint of their natural ability. But I know this about that, that when you do show that kind of talent, there are expectations of you. There is pressure. People are not allowed to be the normal kid if they are placed on the track to that kind of success. Some people cope 'better', or differently than others. Some people who because virtuosi, their parents did not make them do it. What do you think a Steve Vai did to be Steve Vai? Whether or not you appreciate the result. It is a daily struggle. It is a sacrifice.
I think that this is all very cogent. My personal perspective, when encountering people who've focused their whole lives on one skill or skill set, has usually been to interpret it as unhealthy. Self-harm. Too much pressure for healthy living (especially people who train from childhood to be Olympic stars).

But that's MY perspective. I was never encouraged to value skills or interests that aren't seen as inherently financially practical (interests in the arts were seen as an extravagant risk to financial security). My own struggles weren't rewarded in school or at home, so I developed no feeling that struggle (beyond the survival extent) was worthwhile. My life experiences repeatedly compounded this inadvertent lesson. The sad fact is that my youth was the right time to take such risks. Not my 40s, where I have a mortgage, two cats, and disabilities.

So people who were encouraged to struggle to get what they wanted, who had both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, probably had a much healthier outlook, despite my viewpoint on struggle. The struggle was real, and it cost them, but they earned something.

As I've mentioned previously, there have been times when I resented people for getting jobs without going through the same struggles as me (learning by doing the work), but I never felt resentment toward people who did more work and were justifiably rewarded for it. I've felt insecurity, but often they worked to acknowledge that we are just different, not a superior and an inferior.

I certainly experienced discomfort around "high effort" people if they've used their efforts as a justification to be jerks. If they've been unjustly critical of me or just plain had bad social skills, sure, I won't get on with them. Usually I avoid that type. It's one big reason I don't want to go back to IT: technical people seem to trend toward a higher percentage of social skills deficits. Musicians are technical people, right? :lol:

Though, again, in IT, I found more deficits in the other workers than I found great skill. People often functioned more from a social engineering stance than from displaying actual skill on the job. The most skilled and informed/experienced person I met in IT had zero hostility or arrogance. He just loved the work and was happy and eager to use his knowledge, including by sharing it with the rest of us. He was generous and never once demonstrated any kind of info-hoarding behavior.

That's how the photography instructors were at the art program I mentioned above. It's almost like such people are apt to be displaced and kicked out of their jobs because of being generous...
jancivil wrote:When I say certain things here, I get this 'You're the most arrogant person I know' and shit like this. Well, you cannot be arrogant and set yourself on a path towards excellence and get anywhere. It is humility; it is the opposite of the Dunning-Kruger Effect case, you know quite where you are vis a vis your surroundings.
False modesty is insincere by definition.
Some people do get places with arrogance and false modesty. Politics and corporate culture are perfect examples. Music, too, can be more about who you know and how you self-promote than about skill and ability. Though that's business again. I'd think school would be different. Maybe the social engineering thing can happen in schools which foster terrible cultures, though.

When Steve Vai was referenced earlier (what you responded to), my interpretation of that original comment was that it was used as an example of a person at his school being a poser; expecting that attitude would get them to Steve Vai level (or who thought they already possessed it, despite demonstrating a failure to work well with others). I didn't see it as criticizing Steve Vai (or someone who sincerely aspired to that level of expertise).

As for you specifically: I value your participation in threads. I interpret your words as coming from an informed person who has struggled extensively, including likely struggling to attain said informed status. You don't walk on eggshells. I don't want to analyze you in public; I just mean to say I try to give you the benefit of the doubt.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
5265 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:47 am

Bombadil wrote:when I see little kids look at what I can do as if it were an amazing magic trick,
For me it's usually...hmm I can't see how he can do that with those sausage fingers.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
40646 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:45 am

Bombadil wrote:Well, if anyone dares tell me a DJ is a musician, I'd guffaw in his face. I suppose that makes me an elitist snob..

terminator x says "bite me!"

:hihi:

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:45 am

Hink wrote:we're getting way off topic, but I just want to respond that if you're on ssdi this is not the case. There is the work ticket program which allows you to work five years with no limit on what you can make, you can work part time forever as long as you stay beneath the limit.
I did the reading on this about a month ago and that isn't what I found. Maybe I read something wrong.

What I found: the ticket to work program is designed to remove from SSDI exactly what you make from the job. It is NOT designed to consider your wellbeing. Because of my disability, a part-time job would add way more difficulty than it would alleviate.

If work income exceeds a certain amount, SSDI ends. The cutoff amount is LESS than what I get from SSDI. My SSDI is already insufficient for subsistence (even when including SNAP benefits for groceries).

Subsisting on SSDI allows me to sleep when my body is able. It frees me from worsening my health while meeting an employer's arbitrary scheduling. SSD lets me avoid corporate sociopathy (the exact scenario that left me with PTSD in the first place).

I need a job that exceeds what SSD does for me, otherwise what's the point? It's just self-destruction otherwise. I've read that this scenario is a very common problem with the USA's social support systems.
Hink wrote:...so I didn't just lose the love of my life (I hate talking like this because it sounds so cold, but it's a fact).
It's not cold. It's describing actual human existence.
Hink wrote:I have been trying to find something part time here but I have been disabled since early this century and most places hiring part time do all their hiring by online applications. One look at how long I have been out of work and they just pass me over and there's not a lot of part time work around here.
I've been off work since December 2006. The job ended due to sociopathic employers. I can't get a reference or explain it to a prospective employer. I must refuse to discuss why I left (was "resigned") to avoid prospective employer preemptive defensiveness. Most of my jobs were with abusive employers but that last one figuratively broke my back.
Hink wrote:I have a vet rep helping me at a Maine state employment place...
The EEOC was less than useless. It felt like they actively tried to get rid of me because I didn't want to work fast-food or other non-living-wage temp jobs. I must be an entitled brat to want a living wage doing something relevant to my skills. They've zero interest in helping an artist onto the path of selling art, either.

But everyone who wants a job has one, right? :mad:
Hink wrote:I think that is horrible, I got jobs by hitting the bricks, meeting people, selling myself and this is impersonal I hate it. Hopefully something good happens soon, I get by but just barely.
I hope so too, for your sake. :hug: How did you make the big move without income?

I'm no good at, and hate, self-promotion. My prior jobs were through a chain of lifelong social connections; that's now broken. I've no social group & never had the formal qualifications employers demand. It just compounds my resentment for having been directed against my interests by family; they put me on the path of ultimately being a socioeconomic pariah.

Probably should've gotten a loan and become a snobby elitist at OIART instead (see, that's on topic, right? :lol:)
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:48 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:
IncarnateX wrote: I think I have to add something to your thoughts about this Jace-BeOS. You should know that elitism in general has completely other conditions in Denmark than in USA. We have something called “Jante-Law”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
[...]
Thanks for that bit of interesting cultural info. So it might be that the arrogance is oppressed socially in many contexts, but such people as are want to be elitist jerks will find ways of exercising it differently in different environments.

I wish my country had a bit of culture that pushed people toward a social focus, rather than an obsession with individualism.
Sounds more like self-victimization and self-pity of the elite to me.
I know that from Germany, whenever someone there speaks out in favor of more social justice, the elite complains about social envy.
Same in the USA. "Entitlement" is their go-to term, which ironically describes them more than it describes the average populous.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:50 am

IncarnateX wrote:And Jace and Hink. Since I am a researcher in special needs education I am the last person at KVR that would mind your OT. Would be more than happy if you could benefit from each other and you have my deepest sympathy, of course. There are cyber space enough around for all of it. Even the crazy Turkey/Europe discussion.
Cheers :-)

As an aside: it seems to me that the Turkey/Europe discussion is more about geopolitical lines than geography. ;-)
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Bombadil
KVRAF
2707 posts since 31 Aug, 2013 from Far From the Twisted Reach of Crazy Sorrow

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:51 am

vurt wrote:
Bombadil wrote:Well, if anyone dares tell me a DJ is a musician, I'd guffaw in his face. I suppose that makes me an elitist snob..

terminator x says "bite me!"

:hihi:
Where's the 'guffaw' emoji when you need it? :lol:
“We're an Anarcho-Syndicalist commune”
Dennis

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vurt
addled muppet weed
40646 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:51 am

:lol:

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:08 am

tapper mike wrote:So let me get this straight. You don't want callouses on your fingers so you don't want to play guitar but those who are willing to go through the process of learning the guitar which includes callouses are snobs because they accepted it would be hard work and painful.
Wait, what? Where did I say that such people are snobs?
tapper mike wrote: When I got my first guitar I had to wash dishes professionally at a high volume restaurant. My hands were in soapy water 7-8 hours a day. It hurt like hell trying to practice after a long shift of work but I did it anyway because I didn't accept excuses for myself.
That's great. It's not something I want to do. I thought I clarified this in my response to the other person who went after me on this.
tapper mike wrote:You have a violin but you are having issues developing bowing technique. Yet I'm assuming you have an internet connection fast enough to watch youtube videos.
And I stated that I watched them. Maybe I was unclear; sorry if so. It didn't help me at all.
tapper mike wrote:Before I started playing guitar many friends said they'd teach me. (back in the 70's) However once I actually started they were too busy practicing with bands to give me the attention I could have really used. So I'd sit and I'd watch then I'd go home and try to play what they were playing. If I didn't have my head up my arse so far I could have saved a lot of time in my development by paying a local teacher at a local music shop.
Why didn't you?
tapper mike wrote:Which I eventually did.
My experiences with teachers, as I noted elsewhere in this thread, were that they weren't willing to teach without notation, which I cannot do per learning disabilities (I've tried).
tapper mike wrote:Not having a teacher didn't stop me from trying to learn things on my own.
Same for me. But I have found that being able to get direct feedback from an expert is incredibly valuable (discovered this when I took a class for Lightwave 3D). Previously, as I think I mentioned, everything had to be self-taught. Actually, everything after that too.

It's really tiring to spend so much time looking for a forum thread where someone asks my question and gets a sincerely helpful response, or asking it myself and wading through the bulk of back & forth text necessary to explain myself enough that I can get past everyone's knee-jerk responses from misunderstanding my intent. Having an expert in the room, someone who wants to share their knowledge, is invaluable and rare... even when paying for it.
tapper mike wrote:Even without a teacher I was able to go to the local public library and check out books learning to read notation and figuring out songs by playing them over and over again as well as having songbooks.
Great :-). That doesn't work for me.
tapper mike wrote:Yes still going to high school and washing dishes I made the time to make it happen so.. I'm a snob.
Says who? I think you're reading something other than what I've been saying. Or maybe you're confusing my posts with someone else's?
tapper mike wrote:I'd take every opportunity that came my way to play out live even if it was in a park where the only audience was squirrels and birds to build my confidence for playing in public. If I had any talent it was the talent of hard work. Yet I'm the snob.
Where are you getting this accusation of snobbery from?
tapper mike wrote:Soon thereafter if someone wanted me to back them up in a band or duet I'd only turn it down for time constraints. I was less concerned about holding onto an ideal of what I wanted to play and more concerned with playing well regardless of the genre. I play jazz, I love jazz and regardless of the skills I seek out be they on the guitar or other instrument or the styles available I try to keep my mind open and dedicate myself to expanding my skills. If there is something I can gain by studying hiphop or edm or some other style then I'll try it I'll work through it. Right now I'm using melodics as courseware to sharpen my grid performance skills. Yes I bought the course-ware, the reason is that the best investment I can make to making music is in myself.
Excellent stuff, Mike :-) I just don't know how I've left you with the impression that I've called you, or people like you, a snob.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3391 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:23 am

So I went back to the arpeggiator theme and thought: "How on Earth can I get some validation as an arpeggiator player when it is such a long forgotten discipline and completely superfluous these days where everyone just step sequence or notate in DAWs. Hmmm I need an authority, but who?".
And then it stroke me: Fred Mandel and his Jupiter 8, of course :dog:

So, it is time for a little break in which we will take a walk down memory lane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdwsXLmrHE

Quite fit for this thread in many ways, ain't it? :D

As you were, soldiers!

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