KVR Audio

bbaggins · Post by **bbaggins** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:52 pm

I have made NKIs for several of my favorite Yamaha MO8 patches for my own convenience. No legal issues there. I'm wondering, though, if I can legally share those libraries with others. After all, the original Yamaha samples are surely proprietary.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:11 pm

bbaggins wrote:I'm wondering, though, if I can legally share those libraries with others. After all, the original Yamaha samples are surely proprietary.

unless you have permission, you're likely to be in breach of copyright.

izonin · Post by **izonin** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:13 pm

bbaggins wrote:I have made NKIs for several of my favorite Yamaha MO8 patches for my own convenience. No legal issues there. I'm wondering, though, if I can legally share those libraries with others. After all, the original Yamaha samples are surely proprietary.

It's ok as long as Yamaha have no idea about it. So, please, don't ask them for a permission.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:16 pm

izonin wrote:It's ok as long as Yamaha have no idea about it. So, please, don't ask them for a permission.

yeah, for definitions of 'ok' that include 'not legal'

Mushy Mushy · Post by **Mushy Mushy** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:22 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
bbaggins wrote:I'm wondering, though, if I can legally share those libraries with others. After all, the original Yamaha samples are surely proprietary.
unless you have permission, you're likely to be in breach of copyright.

Not sure I agree.
Would it be different if he released a musical CD featuring tracks which were simply random hits of the keyboard with gaps between each sound. The "artist" could also specify these "tracks" can freely be copied and resampled...

'tis a fine line

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:31 pm

Mushy Mushy wrote:Not sure I agree.

The synth in question is a rompler, it would appear. So it falls under redestribution of work derived from a copyrighted recording.

Would it be different if he released a musical CD featuring tracks which were simply random hits of the keyboard with gaps between each sound. The "artist" could also specify these "tracks" can freely be copied and resampled...

Nope. The intent would be pretty obvious.

Mushy Mushy · Post by **Mushy Mushy** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:33 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:Not sure I agree.
The synth in question is a rompler, it would appear. So it falls under redestribution of work derived from a copyrighted recording.

Would it be different if he released a musical CD featuring tracks which were simply random hits of the keyboard with gaps between each sound. The "artist" could also specify these "tracks" can freely be copied and resampled...
Nope. The intent would be pretty obvious.

Yes I did forget the very important legal term "substance over form".

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:09 pm

Technically, it is illegal - you have sampled copyrighted samples/recordings/intellectual property (IP) and they are, technically, not yours to re-distribute in any form. Fine for private use and fooling around with but not for 'sharing'.

Practically, you might get away with it but only in the same way that you might get away with parking your car illegally, fiddling your taxes or robbing a bank. The fact that other people are doing this and getting away with it is not a mitigating factor. If you are caught, expect a slapping ... or at least a legal writ issuing a Cease & Desist (C&D) instruction based on all manner of international copyright laws

I appreciate the altruism in wanting to 'share' but it could land you in trouble.

Even avoiding the legal aspect, think of it this way...

You have spent a LOT of money and a lot of time developing hundreds, maybe thousands of samples. You've employed musicians, paid for studio time, employed engineers to record them, hired in expensive gear to capture it and then paid a team of programmers and sound designers to knock them into shape. After a year of hard (and tedious) work, you release them, spend a fortune on marketing, etc.. Your livelihood depends on them selling even if it's only to recoup the costs incurred creating these wonderful samples...

And someone comes along, lobs 'em into Kontakt and gives them away for free!

I suspect you wouldn't be too pleased and you'd do everything you could to stop that and kill it dead!

I appreciate the altruistic motives in the gesture but what you are proposing is illegal and there is no "thin line' as has been suggested - you would be re-distributing IP that does not belong to you and Yamaha would be well within their legal rights to come down hard on you. And they would win! Simples!

I give this advice charitably as I have, in my naivety, 10 or 15 years ago or so, been there, got the T-shirts and the C&D orders and legal writs and learnt not only a LOT about copyright law but that if you want to do this properly, get permission (and maybe pay for that) or, errmmmmm...

DON'T!!

Any advice to the contrary given here is idealistic fantasy!!

HTH

Cheers,

Stephen

bbaggins · Post by **bbaggins** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Q: How is re-sampling someone else's samples fundamentally different from using said samples in a recording?

Has Yamaha not already implicitly given me permission to use those samples (in their original form) to make music, even if for profit?

bbaggins · Post by **bbaggins** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:23 pm

Thanks for weighing in, Stephen. If anybody would know about this stuff, it would be you.

I have never offered to share my libraries because my intuition says it would be unethical. I am truly blown away by the quality Yamaha has managed to squeeze into such a tiny space. I can't even imagine how much work (and money) went into that.

Still, we see a lot of homebrew sample sets appearing here on KVR. Is there perhaps a distinction based on whether or not they are analog synths being sampled?

Do the vendors of Moog libraries pay royalties to Moog for sampling Moog products, (or perhaps only to use the Moog name)?

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:26 pm

What you're talking about isn't "to make music," it's "to make materials for others to make music with."

If I buy a license for a recording of soundbeds, stingers, and such, I'm allowed to use them to make commercials.

o/~ Da-doop dah doo wah, dee-dah... o/~ "Bad credit? NO credit? NO PROBLEM! Come on down to Dishonest Dan's Used Car Lot and we'll get you into a high-interest, long-term loan in no time flat. Call today!" o/~ ... dee-dum-doo, dah dah dee WAH! ZOW. o/~

What I can't do is make a digitized copy of the sound beds, stingers, and so forth, and sell (or give away) that.

The Moogs I've used have completely analog signal generation and don't contain internal recordings, so you can sample away to your heart's content.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:35 pm

bbaggins wrote:Q: How is re-sampling someone else's samples fundamentally different from using said samples in a recording?

Has Yamaha not already implicitly given me permission to use those samples (in their original form) to make music, even if for profit?

Yeah, you have permission to use and re-sample as you wish, but not to re-distribute. The synths (and drums) I sample for my packs are all analog, so I create the sounds myself from scratch, and can therefore sell or distribute them without needing permission.

izonin · Post by **izonin** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:42 pm

Does this also mean that if he sells his MO8 he'll have to delete his nki's?

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:52 pm

izonin wrote:Does this also mean that if he sells his MO8 he'll have to delete his nki's?

No ... he just can't re-distribute them.

izonin · Post by **izonin** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:58 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
izonin wrote:Does this also mean that if he sells his MO8 he'll have to delete his nki's?
No ... he just can't re-distribute them.

Then he can lend me his workstation, and I can legally sample the patches I like for my own use, but it would be illegal for him to send me his nki's? Makes no sense to me.

Legality of distributing sampled synths