Possible scam buyer! Using PayPal Friends & Family = NO PROTECTION if you get scammed

Buy and sell, post special offers, group buys, etc. NOT product announcements.
Meffy
Skunk Mod
21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:11 pm

A PM from a KVR member who has made no posts to the forum got reported, so I looked into it. Here is part of the PM I sent the person who tried to buy the item for sale.
[name omitted], hello. A KVR member reports that you've tried to buy an item from the Sell & Buy forum, but wanted to use PayPal Friends and Family payment.

As I'm sure you know, the Friends and Family payment option is to be used only to send money to friends and family — NOT to pay for goods or services.

For a person to request payment via Friends and Family is often a red flag, an indicator that the buyer intends to scam the seller.
So here's yet another reminder — If you accept payment via PayPal Friends and Family, you have no protection in case of fraud. PayPal will not assist you in recovering your goods. Use Goods and Services payment if you want to be protected.

Meffy
Skunk Mod

Topic Starter

21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:15 pm

If you have received a PM from an unfamiliar person, requesting the Friends and Family payment option instead of Goods and Services, to warn others you can report it in this thread (as well as reporting the PM to the moderation staff in the usual way).

Please don't make any accusations, as not everyone who does this is a scammer. Just consider it a warning, a heads-up to other KVR members to be suspicious.

User avatar
thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
31490 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:27 pm

I avoid buying from sellers who insist on Friends & Family payments for the same reason. Would rather pay more and stay safe.

User avatar
Desire Inspires
KVRist
41 posts since 16 Aug, 2019

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:34 pm

Who was scammed?
To the stars through desire.

Meffy
Skunk Mod

Topic Starter

21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:43 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:27 pm
I avoid buying from sellers who insist on Friends & Family payments for the same reason. Would rather pay more and stay safe.
Me too. I dislike PayPal, but will not fraudulently make a transaction claiming no goods or services are involved, which is exactly what Friends & Family means. If I were to do so, then the buyer did a chargeback, PayPal could tell me, "When making the transaction you affirmed to PayPal that no goods or services were involved. Now you tell us that was not the case. We accept no liability in cases involving deceit, and are not obligated to assist you."

Meffy
Skunk Mod

Topic Starter

21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Desire Inspires wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Who was scammed?
Out of concern for privacy I can't say who was involved. Fortunately in this instance nobody got scammed… not yet. The seller recognized that this was a red flag, and reported the PM offering to buy what he or she had for sale.

It's possible the buyer was simply trying to get the goods a little cheaper. However, given how common the PayPal F&F scam is, I'm inclined to think it wasn't a not-quite-innocent mistake. In the past week or so, two KVR members got ripped off this way, and neither is able to get relief through PayPal. Maybe they'll be able to go through other channels, I couldn't say.

SoftSynthLover99
KVRist
190 posts since 27 Jun, 2019

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:00 pm

I’ve sold several items via friends and family that cost several hundred dollars, and sometimes offer to send payments via friends and family to try and get prices a bit lower, and to help sellers with fees.

Saying anyone who uses friends and family is trying to scam is not right in my opinion. There are still good people in the world who are just looking for good deals and will offer to send payments this way or request to receive them this way. Doesn’t always mean they are scammers.

SoftSynthLover99
KVRist
190 posts since 27 Jun, 2019

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:06 pm

And the best protection will ALWAYS be your bank. If someone used paypal friends and received a chargeback, contact the plugin manufacturer and confirm they received the plug-in, and your bank will handle the rest regardless of how you sent the payment.

Your bank won’t allow fraudulent charges even if from a friend trying to rip you off, so if anyone here got ripped off with friends and family, skip paypal and work directly with your bank. They will sort it out if PayPal refuses to.

Meffy
Skunk Mod

Topic Starter

21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:09 pm

SoftSynthLover99 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:00 pm
Saying anyone who uses friends and family is trying to scam is not right in my opinion.
How fortunate that I didn't say that. Look at the thread title. First word: "Possible".

However, anyone who tells PayPal that they are sending money to a friend or family member, when they are actually making a transaction for goods or services, is entering into a business deal under false pretenses. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't be surprised if that is considered commercial fraud.

[eta] I agree that going to your bank would be a sensible next step in recovering your payment. But what happens next? Your bank contacts PayPal, most likely, and then PayPal informs the bank that you used F&F to receive payment for goods or services, contrary to their terms of service. I think that would make the bank less likely to cooperate in recovering the funds.

It's up to each person whether they prefer to play it safe and legal, or skirt applicable laws for the sake of a few dollars. As I said, at least two KVR members are out significant amounts due to this scam. And that's just the past couple weeks.

User avatar
kidslow
KVRist
411 posts since 26 Aug, 2019

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:53 pm

Meffy wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:09 pm
However, anyone who tells PayPal that they are sending money to a friend or family member, when they are actually making a transaction for goods or services, is entering into a business deal under false pretenses. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't be surprised if that is considered commercial fraud.
IANAL but I can read legal contracts. I respectfully disagree with your legal assessment. There is nothing in the Paypal T&C that stipulates the terms of F&F (with the exception that they explicitly list it under "Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program"), such that Paypal could be victim of fraud. If you complete the agreed upon transaction with your counter party (I buy/sell this license), there would be no fraud, and there can be no victim of fraud among the three parties of the transaction (A-Paypal-B). That's not to say Paypal can't and won't revoke your account for any reason they like and be capricious about it.

Meffy
Skunk Mod

Topic Starter

21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:54 pm

Kidslow, I'll take your word on the matter of fraud. Still a poor choice in my opinion, and I still strongly advise against using F&F option unless you know the other party well. Definitely not suitable for selling to, or buying from, someone who's new to KVR (or for that matter any forum).

rasmusklump
KVRian
1391 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Germany

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:52 pm

SoftSynthLover99 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:00 pm

Saying anyone who uses friends and family is trying to scam is not right in my opinion. There are still good people in the world who are just looking for good deals and will offer to send payments this way or request to receive them this way. Doesn’t always mean they are scammers.
you are betraying paypal.

omac
KVRist
220 posts since 13 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:32 pm

From the buyer's point of view the amount of money is the same as if the seller had charged him the Paypal fees since Paypal charges the fees to the buyer. The difference is only that now the buyer has no record of a sale. I have been in the situation once where I paid using friends & family and had been (unintentionally it turned out) scammed. Paypal was quite firm with me that was not the intended purpose for f&f and declined to begin reimbursement proceedings. I was just out of the money I'd spent. It took another seven days of me feeling like a fool(at this point about 30 days) before the seller responded, apologized with an explanation (that was very unlikely but probably true) and shipped the item. I've only used f&f once since that time a couple of years ago, and that was with a person who I knew from another forum as being of excellent character. I won't do it again. I know what Paypal does when something goes wrong with a transaction paid for using f&f.

V0RT3X
KVRAF
8448 posts since 4 Jul, 2012 from Alesia

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:54 pm

I've been burned ONCE by paying as a gift and never got my money back.

Definitely good to have a sticky post on here that reminds people.
:borg:

User avatar
JNS WRNHD
KVRist
409 posts since 21 Aug, 2018 from Sweden

Post Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:56 pm

SoftSynthLover99 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:00 pm
I’ve sold several items via friends and family that cost several hundred dollars, and sometimes offer to send payments via friends and family to try and get prices a bit lower, and to help sellers with fees.

Saying anyone who uses friends and family is trying to scam is not right in my opinion. There are still good people in the world who are just looking for good deals and will offer to send payments this way or request to receive them this way. Doesn’t always mean they are scammers.
I second this.

Return to “Sell & Buy (+Special Offers, Deals & Promos)”