The "Ultimate" live rig? It works for me... :D

[Hrauda]

Hi Dasher,
thanks a lot for sharing your ultimate rig with us. This is particularly helpful to beginners on Receptor such as me.
I noticed that you use B4 II on channel 1, so I assume you use it quite a lot and thus know a lot about Hammond organs.

I tested B4 II and generally liked its sound, which seems to be particularly great for playing Jazz.
However, I detected some unevenness regarding the volume across the keyboard.
I am aware that these problems are partly outside the usual playing range and not all of them are noticeable in an actual playing situation.
The greatest problem, which is very disturbing while playing, is that some notes of the highest octave (above C6; A4 equals 440 Hz) are much too loud, which causes clipping and an ear-piercing kind of sound (especially when 8' and 5 1/3' are fully drawn, which is the case in many settings).
I tested the "B3 clean" tonewheel in detail (see below), but the
other B3's (pure, classic, ...) as well as the Continentals seemed to have similar problems (at least regarding the 5 1/3'
drawbar).
As I found similar user reports on the web, it doesn't seem to be a problem only caused by
my equipment.


I don't know for sure whether this tonal uneveness is part of NI's strategy to get an authentic sound of a particular Hammond organ or whether it is a simple bug?

Did you also encounter these problems? If yes, how did you solve them?
I'd love to hear an expert's opinion on that.

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Gabor


PS: Please find below the detailed findings of my test (A4 equals 440 Hz):
16': up to Bb2 it is soft
C3-B3 is OK
C4-Bb5 is a bit louder
then it gets softer
above E7 it is loud

5 1/3': F4-F5 is soft
from A5 the volume continually rises
F6 is OK
F#6 is WAYS too loud
G6 and G#6 are OK
A6 is WAYS too loud
Bb6 is OK
the rest is soft

8': the lower range (up to D3) seems too soft
Eb3-Bb3 is OK
B3 is loud
C4-D4 is OK
Eb4 is soft
F4-B4 is OK
C5-Eb6 is soft
from E6 upwards it gets significantly louder
D7 and Eb7 are OK
E7 is WAYS too loud
the rest is OK

4': C4-E5 is soft
F5 is OK
from F#5 upwards it gets continually louder (too loud)
C6 is OK
C#6 is loud
D6-D#6 are soft
E6 is loud
F6 is soft
from F#6 upwards it gets continually softer

2 2/3': up to F#2 it is loud
G2-A2 is OK
Bb2, B2 is loud
C3-E3 is OK
F3-A4 is soft
Bb4-E5 is loud
F5 is OK
F#5 is loud
G5-G#5 is soft
A5 is loud
above Bb5 it is too soft (partly hardly audible)

2': A0-B0 is soft
C0-F#2 is loud
G2-B2 is OK
C3-E4 is soft
F4-C5 is loud
D5-Eb5 is soft
E5 is loud
above F5 it is too soft (partly hardly audible)

1 3/5': A0-B0 is soft
C1-G1 is OK
G#1-B1 is soft
C2-G2 is OK
G#2-B3 is soft
C4-A4 it gets louder
Bb4-B4 is soft
C5 is loud
above C#5 it is too soft (partly hardly audible)

1 1/3': A0-B0 is soft
C1-E1 is OK
F1-B1 is soft
C2-F2 is OK
F#2-G#3 is soft
A3-F#4 it gets louder
G4-G#4 is soft
A4 is loud
above Bb4 it is too soft (partly hardly audible)

1': up to Eb3 is soft
E3-C#4 gets louder
D4-D#4 is soft
E4 is loud
above F4 it is too soft (partly hardly audible)

[thesoundsmith]

As a long-time Hammond player, I know that every B3 is quite different, My issues with B4 are more about the incinsistency from note to note with regard to sub-harmonic content; that is, certain notes have an extra low frq growl that the note next to it does not.

I try to never play outside the range of the instrument, so the other notes are not a problem for me, and any volume inconsistencies within the normal range I frankly don't notice that much, as I am ALWAYS on the volume (expression) pedal, so I adjust as I go. The different sample sets (tonewheels) each have their own issues, mostly similar to the standard set, like they used the same edit parameters when producing the final samples. But regardless of all of this, it is still the ONLY good, real-time playable/editable organ on the Receptor (you could get Charlie, and not have drawbard capability, or the cheaper clones and lose authenticity, but B4 is still the best solution, IMHO.

Bottom line, we alsways have to make trade-offs in the sample world, you have to decide of you can live with the limits or not.

[Hrauda]

Thank you Dasher for your answer!
I agree with you that with the other softare clones authenticity is even less.
I compare B4-II to my Roland VK-8M which is much better playing accords especially with distortion.
For me the question was to change fron hardware to software. My answer currently is: no, keep hardware.

This is also valid for comparison Korg MOSS vs. Moog softwares: MOSS is a way better especially with the tube on Triton Extreme.
Gabor

[Kaius]

I spended some time with B4II and for what I can understand, its the rotary speaker ( both of them ) that produces the change in volume( somtimes the double in dB range )on the higher octave. Try to change the air, distance, and angle of the "virtual" microphones and you will get different high volume notes in the higher octave.
You can mess around with the equalization and the tonewheels, but the only thing that made the discrepancy of volume disappear ( for me, at least ) was when i treid other amp combos...
Im considering running B4 direct to a leslie (with a Ad/da patchbay ) or a another leslie emulation ( a pity since ive got the leslie emulation in B4 almost right to my ears ...
With a PA live its really annoying 'cause it pierces everything in the band... besides making the guitar player and vocalist move, since they think its a feedback .. lol


cheers!

Conserning the "ultimate rig" ... anyone tried the Fatar 161 organ controller? or the D3 combo from Doepfer?

[thesoundsmith]

...Try to change the air, distance, and angle of the "virtual" microphones and you will get different high volume notes in the higher octave.
You can mess around with the equalization and the tonewheels, but the only thing that made the discrepancy of volume disappear ( for me, at least ) was when i treid other amp combos...

Good idea. THis works well to reduce the throb of a Leslie on Tremolo, another option for some rigs/configurations is to simply reduce the hard kleft/right panning to about 85% (pan knobs to 8 and 4.)

With a PA live its really annoying 'cause it pierces everything in the band... besides making the guitar player and vocalist move, since they think its a feedback .. lol

Yes. Isn't it GREAT for a change? Hahahahahaaaa!!!

[philosorhymes]

With this setup, I have a really huge assortment of options. Full Hammond sound, with drawbars (I miss the lower manual control, though.) Piano, electric pianos, clav,what more keys could you ask for? Classic DX7 adn Minimoog sounds, splits for solo gigs and on and on. Sfz with a good GM soundfont can easily be added (or replace the SFX bank) to add other instruments like brass pads - tho these are on the FM7. The pad-under-the-piano trick is an old one, but still sounds great...

Hey Soundsmith, I like the idea of what you have done, I think I have been thinking on a different plane. I like the way you have built the splits and layers into the receptor rig, rather than relying on keyboard splits and zones.

However, I have a few questions for you.

1) What do you use the zones on the axiom for? if at all? I have been using them for my layers. I assign each zone to a different midi channel which lets me play various instruments depending on what I have set in receptor. Typically it is one instrument per midi channel for me

2) What do you play on the upper keyboard? and what do you use the 8 sliders for? I use the sliders to control the volume for each MIDI channel. I have one slider that controls Receptors Overall Volume.

3) When you are playing a split/layer, how do you control the levels of the elements? For example I love to bring the strings in and out from time to time rather than just muting them.

4) Could you also explain how you have been able bring in a layer with just a single button press?


Many Thanks

Phil.

[thesoundsmith]

OK, let's see...
I don't at this time use the zones, in this configuration, they are not any use that I have determined. I have most of my plugs set to one midi channel, but because my upper keyboard is only 62 notes, I don't have a use for splitting/zones.

2: I play my synths (FM7, MinimogueVA, sfz, OP-X) and upper manual B4 from the upper manual. In each preset, the sliders do something different - for B4, it'w drawbars, for the 'regular' synths they control ADSR and filter ADSR, for the soundfonts, they don't do anything, Remember, on the Axiom, any switch/knob/slider can be many different types of control, not just a cc number. If you use the sliders for channel volume snd it does what you need, great. See below.

3: I control overall volume via cc7, if it is from the lower keyboard, I have the master volume slider transmitting cc7 and the volume pedal on cc11. The upper manual has its own volume pedal for cc11, and the sustain switch is connected to an actual Leslie half=moon switch for Leslie control. Useless on the pther patches, I have no sustain )cc64) on the upper manual. That was the tradeoff for having a Leslie control that I can use 'normally.'

4: Bringing in a layer - depends on the plug, but I assign a key on the Axiom, for layering I tend to use the Transport buttons. Turn on or off the master volume (most synths,) or switch the plug's channel on/off (RMX) or use a slider or knob to send cc7 to that plug while cc11 controls its relative vilume.

HTH...

[philosorhymes]

Thanks Dasher, this is interesting; I have never ever considered MIDI controllers which do not have zones before, but your rig shows me there are ways around this. I am familiar with MIDI cc7, but what is MIDI cc 11 for? It's always labelled as expression but I am not sure what effect this has on say a piano patch and whether it would vary from one instrument to another? It would be great if was just another volume control.

Thanks

Phil

[thesoundsmith]

cc11 (undestanding the subtext - it's just another number - but is commonly used for 'expression' - say what"

In a properly designed universe, cc 7 determines how loud a sound is relative to a mix; i.e., other sounds. cc11 is to control how a sound behaves as it gets louder/softer. Most non-percussive instruments get brighter when played louder, and the attack times tend to be faster, the opposite is true for pp/ppp. cc11 is essentially an intensity control. But static sample players cannot properly track this control. Only recently have systems been designed that can really properly change timbre, and these oddly enough do not use cc11 for this function (I'm referring to the Garritan Strad violn, Jazz and Big Band and GPO. They use the mod wheel, cc1) There are some older libraries that have mimiced the effect fairly well, but really only in the last couple of years has cc11 started to become a viable control.

For piano, percussion and non-sustaining stuff, it's just a volume control, but it may still add some brightness variation on many synths.