guitar pickup sim?

[Compyfox]

Normal humbucker wiring is series (- +- +) or paraller (-- ++) which result the _signal_ in phase while the magnets are still reverse polarity. Series will sound like a humbucker while paraller sounds more like a single coil but still both of them are cancelling hum. You can also wire the signal out of phase while the magnets are still reverse polarity.

Exactly. The signals of a humbucker are not typically out of phase. That's a custom option some people go with in strat-style guitars or in separate pickups... not too many people put the two "pickups" of a humbucker out of phase.. the signal would be far too thin.

Greg

Wait, if it's THAT simple, then actually the signal is catched "twice", which results in a 6dB Gain Boost, but fairly mid-ranged sound (bandpass).

As if a vocal take is just copied over itself, which results in the very same effect rather than a subtle chorus, as it is no doubled take.


Then a VST plugin wiring would be simple, no? It's just like that:
Audio In -> 2 channels parallell
1st Channel -> EQ (slightly bandpassed) -> Audio Out
2nd Channel -> EQ (a bit more bandpassed, maybe slightly delayed within 10-20ms, Haas effect) -> Audio Out

Since no phase cancelation is involved, BUT boosting the signals, you'd get a more driven signal that can then go into any amp, which is also driven harder due to that.


Wouldn't that work as desired? Or am I still off track?

[Sascha Franck]

Wouldn't that work as desired? Or am I still off track?

It wouldn't exactly work.
One of the major differences between humbuckers and single coils is the entirely different sound caption. A typical humbucker is simply capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range than a single coil. This is makig up for a broader, less punctuated sound.
And, even if companies try to make you believe that this wasn't the case with stacked humbuckers (the two coils are arranged horizontally on top of each other), it still is, even if not as noticeable.

I do however agree that it's not all that tough to get a pretty much convincing humbucker sound out of single coils. Usually a proper midboost is already bringing you quite close.
Just that the captured single coil noise will still be there...

[Compyfox]

Then is there a possible "array" solution in the VST world that would come close, other than simply boosting midranges, Sascha?

Since I can't play guitar, I use RealStrat and it's pissing me off that this this is just flat sounding fake most of the time. I do know now how to get a decent distorted sound out of it, but it still lacks the fatness of a humbucker, since RealStrat is a Fender Strat VSTi.

Unless I really need to boost and slightly distort the signal after I raised the midranges and rolled off both the low and highend. Which'd work with any EQ, and then I'd simply smack it into ToW Compressor from TbT, and then into any of my available plugins, cause rerouting it through a mixer/impendance converter is often a real pain in the butt - not to mention that I haven't built it yet.

[Sascha Franck]

Then is there a possible "array" solution in the VST world that would come close, other than simply boosting midranges, Sascha?

No idea. Perhaps it could be an idea to double the signal, add a really tiny bit of delay (maybe less than 5ms or so) and slightly mix that signal in to fatten things up.

But then, I guess the problem with RealStrat isn't that it's using single coils. I mean, it's not a real guitar...

[Tubeman]

Didn't you say it's IMpossible to emulate a humbucker with a single coil?

Yes I did and I will say it once more: it is impossible, you can't get rid of the hum without touching the signal.

[Tubeman]

One of the major differences between humbuckers and single coils is the entirely different sound caption. A typical humbucker is simply capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range than a single coil. This is makig up for a broader, less punctuated sound.

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by 'capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range'? As humbucker can be just 2 identical coils wired at opposite polarity.

[Sascha Franck]

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by 'capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range'? As humbucker can be just 2 identical coils wired at opposite polarity.

Well, maybe my english wasn't up to the job to explain it.
Anyways, when you have a single coil, the single row of magnets are "grabbing" the signal at more or less one exact point whereas with typical "horizontal" humbuckers the signal is captured by two rows of magnets, so the captured range is a bit broader, plus it's actually two "mixed" capturing points (one per each row). Actually, I think "amplitude" waa a completely wrong word.
I think the very thing I'm talking about has already been mentioned in this thread.

[Tubeman]

Well, maybe my english wasn't up to the job to explain it.
Anyways, when you have a single coil, the single row of magnets are "grabbing" the signal at more or less one exact point whereas with typical "horizontal" humbuckers the signal is captured by two rows of magnets, so the captured range is a bit broader, plus it's actually two "mixed" capturing points (one per each row). Actually, I think "amplitude" waa a completely wrong word.
I think the very thing I'm talking about has already been mentioned in this thread.

Hmm, a humbucker is just picking the same signal at two slightly different physical spots, those two signals are not any broader, they are just single coil signals until you wire them together. Connect only one of those and you got a signal picked from one exact point.

The high frequency roll off in series wired humbucker does not happen because of different spots but simply because there is twice as much wire or 'turns' hence more inductance which lowers the resonance frequency of the pickup. And more turns=more output. While paraller wired humbucker will have no change in resonance frequency but lower output.

[Sascha Franck]

The high frequency roll off in series wired humbucker does not happen because of different spots but simply because there is twice as much wire or 'turns' hence more inductance which lowers the resonance frequency of the pickup. And more turns=more output.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. If what you are saying was correct, stacked humbuckers would suffer from the same high frequency roll off (in fact, to me it's even more a loss of "snappiness", but that's beyond the point for now), which they clearly don't.
And well, it's just perfectly explaninable as well that capturing an oscillating string at two different positions, especially in case those positions are close to each other (which is the case, using a humbucker) will result in a somewhat less "clear" sound. After all, the amplitudes of the oscillating string will not be "synchronized" (in lack of a better word) when using two different spots to pick them up.
Following your logic, it wouldn't even matter where to place the additional coil - which clearly isn't the case as it matters a LOT - something you can easily check for yourself by simply switching around with your PU selector.

While paraller wired humbucker will have no change in resonance frequency but lower output.

I have to disagree again. A paralelly wired humbucker won't just be lower in volume, it will also sound somewhat thinner, slightly going into single coil alike sound territory. There's no way a paralelly wired humbucker would sound the same as a serially wired one, once you raise the gain. There's also quite a difference in "thickness" (again in lack of a better word).
I don't know why that is, but having used different serial, single coil or parallel wiring modes for humbuckers, I certainly do know that it's like that. I could probably even prove that by running a humbucker in either mode through an analyzer.

[pinkjimiphoton]

One of the major differences between humbuckers and single coils is the entirely different sound caption. A typical humbucker is simply capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range than a single coil. This is makig up for a broader, less punctuated sound.

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by 'capturing the string amoplitudes on a wider range'? As humbucker can be just 2 identical coils wired at opposite polarity.

humbuckers sample a greater amount of string is why,lol...

but remember too, there are all kinds of singlecoils..
a soapbar is a single coil, but sounds a whole lot fatter than a strat or tele.

and no humbuckers coils are exact matches..no need for it, and discrepancies usually create a phatter tone as more frequencies can survive the phas cancelation effects.

[pinkjimiphoton]

to make a humbucker, choose the style single coil you use, reverse the connections to put it out of phase (being cybernetic, ground becomes less of an issue, if at all)
tweak a couple parameters till it sounds good, and wango, there's whatever model necessary.
like i said, maybe not perfect, but i bet it could be done close enough for some apps.
and i too am a guitar player, so to me it doesn;t seem all that difficult.
obviously EXACT models are gonna be problematic....but in general, i don;t hink it's impossible...
where's xoxos?
i bet he could build it.

No that would certainly not work. Humbuckers are not wired out of phase like you describe but in phase series or paraller. The trick is that they have coils which pick the buzz/hum at opposite polarity while the signal is in phase which results twice the signal but cancels the hum when summed. Quite the whole idea of hum-bucker. It's the same idea as with balanced connections. Of course you can wire it out of phase but the result will be very odd phasey signal, but it's still not the same as wiring 2 identical single coils out of phase.

but a himbucker doesn;t give twice the signal, in deed most single coils are louder than a standard humbucker, as a lot of frequencies in the high end are lost due to phase cancellation in a humbucker,
that's why the coils are wound so much hotter, in part to try to make up for the volume loss inherent in the design.

and again, get over the "identical"...it doesn;t happen in any coil, maybe with 5-10%, more likely 20 or greater!

identical hubucker coils would cancel EVERYTHING.

any number = the exact number but opposite =zero, bro.

[pinkjimiphoton]

As for the difficulty, I actually tend to agree-- it should be easier to take a single-coil (a one-node signal) and emulate a humbucker. A humbucker, as a 2-node signal, would be trickier to shift into single-coil zone. But more difficult doesn't = impossible, and I think that given the sophisticated DSP we are capable of these days, it would still be a worthwhile exercise trying to get such an effect up and running.

Greg

I'd say it's impossible to make a humbucker from a single coil with software. They have 2 slightly different signals in series and coils at reverse polarity which effectively boosts the signal, changes the frequency response and cancels the hum. These things need to be done at the guitar like Roland, Line6 etc. have done and i bet those have humbuckers in them.

However it's very easy to make a single coil from a humbucker with 4 wires... just install a switch that will turn the other coil off.

it is possible if the source is separate for each strings(roland GK, line 6, etc)

roland synth pickups have a tiny humbucker for each string...DON'T open one, i got one someone opened at GC, and i had to but a new sensor for it.
BTW...you can upgrade a gk2 to 2a by just changing the 50 dollar sensor...shhhhhhhhhhhhh....
roland got mad at me when i told them that!!!

[pinkjimiphoton]

if a humbucker is wired with the two coils in phase, it is loud, but not a true humbucker, as in order for it to "buck the hum" the idea is using phase cancelation to nuke the 60 hz hum and noise.
the differences in the coils are part of what gives the characteristic tone of a bucker, partially due to many of the frequncies heard by a single coil being cancelled.
while they ARE "in phase" from us guitar players perspective, they are "out of phase" magnetically...if the magnetic phase is the same, the pickup won;t work as a humbucker either.

I think you misunderstood my post, we are talking about the same thing. By wiring i mean actually soldering the wires that come out of the pickup not wounding the copper around the magnets and it has nothing to do with the polarity of the magnets. For humbucker you need the magnets and the copper wire around them _both_ to be reverse polarity.

Normal humbucker wiring is series (- +- +) or paraller (-- ++) which result the _signal_ in phase while the magnets are still reverse polarity. Series will sound like a humbucker while paraller sounds more like a single coil but still both of them are cancelling hum. You can also wire the signal out of phase while the magnets are still reverse polarity.

you are right bro, we are saying the same thing, just describing it differently.

[pinkjimiphoton]

Ok, lets assume you have separate single coil signals for each string in you DAW. Tell me how you remove the hum with software like 2 coil pickup would have done?

I assume he's talking about some kinda piezo pickups, such as both Roland and Line 6 are using.

exactly
have you ever heard the sound from a gk3a(the individual strings, it's neither single, nor hB, nor piezzo, it just sounds totally flat and lifeless, exactly what you need to model owith)

You didn't answer my question, still waiting...

And yes i've played with the Roland system, the gk3a isn't software though, is it (the topic was about VST-plugins)?

my point was that a hex pickup/piezzo doesn't hum at all

my friend created a max program that uses all 6 outputs from the gk cable into 6 inputs of a soundcard and process each input independently(he uses it for pitch detection, way tighter than a gi20/axxon) but once you built the small box to separate the 6 strings/dry guitar/control signals, it will be pretty trivial to build a plugin with 6 inputs to process each stream separately

that's cuz hex pickups are 6 individual humbuckers...but they DO buzz...get close to a computer monitor, or if using a roland, run the hgutar and hex separate without the jumerfrom guitar output connected, put the switch in the "both" position ( guitar and synth) and you will hear ground loop noise that makes a strat in front of a tv screen sound quiet.

[pinkjimiphoton]

my point was that a hex pickup/piezzo doesn't hum at all

my friend created a max program that uses all 6 outputs from the gk cable into 6 inputs of a soundcard and process each input independently(he uses it for pitch detection, way tighter than a gi20/axxon) but once you built the small box to separate the 6 strings/dry guitar/control signals, it will be pretty trivial to build a plugin with 6 inputs to process each stream separately

Yea piezo doesn't hum but it won't help much if one wants a sound of magnetic pickup. That idea of using GK and then programming plugin for it sounds really interesting but then we are far from the original topic of just using software. Roland might have something to say about it too.

I'd actually disagree. A piezo element is going to have a fairly homogenous sound, which is a perfect candidate for additional signal processing. Won't vary as greatly from pickup to pickup.

well, with piezos ou have some disadvantages...you need to preamp the hell out of it to get gain, and also to apply eq so it doesn;t sound like poo, and piezos have way too many highs and harmonics to be really useful for most electric guitar options.
and worst,piezos "distort" under heavy attack and sound like poo, unlike a coil which is unlikely to get hit hard enough to overload into saturation.