2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive.

[Ploki]

*sigh* ok

[iamasiam]

Again, how do I activate P-Link? I click on the icon right below "Predelay" in Breeze 2, and then? When I change values in Precedence, Breeze 2 does not seem to follow (no value changes there).
I´m using the latest version of FL Studio and Reaper.

[XComposer]

I read that Breeze following automatically Precedence (or the opposite way) is a feature that will be implemented in the next version. For the moment, you must dial manually the same values both in Precedence (Distance) and in Breeze (Mix). However, you have to activate P-Link in Breeze anyway also now, in order to have the precise matching of these values working correctly.

[iamasiam]

Alright, thank you! My understanding was that having P-Link available (with the update to Breeze 2.1, and natively integrated in Precedence) means having P-Link working already.

[XComposer]

Well, P-Link must already be activated also now, because, otherwise, the values in Breeze would not match properly those in Precedence. So, first you activate P-Link, then you dial (manually) the same values in the two softwares. Also with the present versions, it will not work if you don't switch the P-Link on.

[iamasiam]

Aah, I see. Thanks again!

[jens]

I don't know... it's as if Precedence is what was missing from Breeze soundwise somehow.

I purchased Breeze 2 during the intro offer period, but never used it much because I somehow had troubles to make it sit well in my (not very artificial) mixes. But now? Oh boy! With Precedence in front of it this seems to be in a league entirely of its own. Suddenly "I get it"!

[jens]

For the moment, you must dial manually the same values both in Precedence (Distance) and in Breeze (Mix).

I often do not get good results with this at all - for instance the drum preset in Precedence has a distance of 75 (which personally I find a bit much b.t.w.) - try dialing in 75% Mix or Balance, not matter what the other settings are - it will be WAY too much. Personally I like a distance around 40-45 in Precedence and this for me still is normally way too much as a Mix setting in Breeze for drums.

So: I think it's nice to have that rule in mind as a potential starting point and as an attempt to balance out Mix and Distance nicely (if it's too wet, slightly reduce both values) and it can be great if that works, but I found that it often doesn't (because once the signal is not too wet, Distance is so low that Precedence doesn't do anymore what it's good at (and potentially barely does much audible at all).

[Andrew Souter]

I don't know... it's as if Precedence is what was missing from Breeze soundwise somehow.

I purchased Breeze 2 during the intro offer period, but never used it much because I somehow had troubles to make it sit well in my (not very artificial) mixes. But now? Oh boy! With Precedence in front of it this seems to be in a league entirely of its own. Suddenly "I get it"!

In 2.0.x there existed the possibility of getting "super-stereo" results in a semi-random, accidental manner. i.e. the correlation of the total impulse response of the preset could have been negative i.e. more out of phase than in phase. This can be quite interesting for synths and is a useful effect. We did note that in the manual and suggested to simply try another click on the "Alg randomize" button if this was objectionable in the current mix context. It is possible some people missed this or did not notice if it was happening, and these sort of "super-stereo" effects, while sounding quite cool in isolation, can sometimes confuse matters in complex mixes. This may be related to comments about previously finding it challenging to fit into a mix in some contexts.

In 2.1 I looked at this a lot more and attempted to block "stochastic/accidental super-stereo". It should generally not occur in 2.1, except perhaps on very narrow specific frequency ranges. And we have also added the Phase-Invert button, so that:

a) if your signal does somehow end up out of phase, you can manually invert it
b) you can intentionally invert it to purposefully achieve "super-stereo" if you desire

hope it helps.

FYI, I'm back at the computer now, and am currently completing the Precedence manual.

Thanks for the compliments!

-a

[XComposer]

I have not had time enough to use Precedence and Breeze 2 very much so far (I'm busy with another urgent work that does not require them, for the moment). In my quick experiments, I have always tried to keep that relationship between Precedence Distance and Breeze Mix strictly fixed (with P-Link on, of course) and I managed to solve such problems by changing Time and Size values in Breeze (instead of changing the Mix value) or by choosing a different Breeze preset. It worked for me, so far.

Moreover, I don't think at all that the Distance values in the Precedence presets are binding: you can move your instruments wherever you want in the space. In Precedence presets, I imagine, all the other values matter much more than Distance (am I wrong?).

Anyway, I understand that the possible situations are almost infinite, so perhaps the method could have to undergo some adjustments, I don't know… Usually, I don't work with drums, besides, so I probably don't realize what are the problems with them.

What does Andrew think of all this?

P.S.: where is the Phase Invert button in Breeze, please?

[jens]

I don't know... it's as if Precedence is what was missing from Breeze soundwise somehow.

I purchased Breeze 2 during the intro offer period, but never used it much because I somehow had troubles to make it sit well in my (not very artificial) mixes. But now? Oh boy! With Precedence in front of it this seems to be in a league entirely of its own. Suddenly "I get it"!

In 2.0.x there existed the possibility of getting "super-stereo" results in a semi-random, accidental manner. i.e. the correlation of the total impulse response of the preset could have been negative i.e. more out of phase than in phase. This can be quite interesting for synths and is a useful effect. We did note that in the manual and suggested to simply try another click on the "Alg randomize" button if this was objectionable in the current mix context. It is possible some people missed this or did not notice if it was happening, and these sort of "super-stereo" effects, while sounding quite cool in isolation, can sometimes confuse matters in complex mixes. This may be related to comments about previously finding it challenging to fit into a mix in some contexts.

In 2.1 I looked at this a lot more and attempted to block "stochastic/accidental super-stereo". It should generally not occur in 2.1, except perhaps on very narrow specific frequency ranges. And we have also added the Phase-Invert button, so that:

a) if your signal does somehow end up out of phase, you can manually invert it
b) you can intentionally invert it to purposefully achieve "super-stereo" if you desire

hope it helps.

Yes, that helps indeed. You are spot on in assuming I might have missed that in the manual and I never threw the dice on the algorithms since I'm not a huge fan of randomizing stuff.

That is very very interesting though - I had the feeling Breeze 2.1 sits a lot better in the mix but was assuming I am imagining stuff (I don't really trust my ears too much and barely know what I do and am talking about).

However I feel putting Precedence in front of it still improves that drastically on some sources - it's hard to describe for me, it's like it's making it "firm" somehow.

[jens]

I managed to solve such problems by changing Time and Size values in Breeze (instead of changing the Mix value) or by choosing a different Breeze preset. It worked for me, so far.

For me that sometimes flat out doesn't or it goes too far away from what I want

Moreover, I don't think at all that the Distance values in the Precedence presets are binding: you can move your instruments wherever you want in the space. In Precedence presets, I imagine, all the other values matter much more than Distance (am I wrong?).

I would think all parameters are equally relevant or irrelevant depending on what you want and need?

But either way like I said when trying out the drums preset I turned down Distance to somewhere between 40 and 45 - for me mentioning this preset was just an example of where the preset designer appears to have had something in mind where there seems to be no way that Mix/Balance could match the Distance value, I would think. It was an example of how it seems 2CAudio themselves do not always seem to follow this rule religiously.

Anyway, I understand that the possible situations are almost infinite, so perhaps the method could have to undergo some adjustments, I don't know… Usually, I don't work with drums, besides, so I probably don't realize what are the problems with them.

As it was just an extreme example it's sometimes similar at least for me on other sources as well. Personally I usually don't like my stuff to be buried in heaps of reverberation but I tend to like using generous amounts of distance.

I'm not attempting to carefully mic up and pristinely record an acoustic instrument if I don't want it to be really heard in a mix - and since I tend to
have several instruments playing at the same time with them often playing different things, that would be a recipe for disaster anyway. So if in doubt I'd rather keep it completely dry that using too much reverb (even if that puts it in danger of making it sound rather homemade).

So: long story short, what I am trying to say is that it might well be quite worthwhile to experiment with completely disregarding this rule, depending on your requirements and personal preferences. At least that's my impression. (but then again, like I said, I barely know what I do )

[Andrew Souter]

Moreover, I don't think at all that the Distance values in the Precedence presets are binding...

What does Andrew think of all this?

Well, certainly at the moment the link between P and B is completely manual, so obviously you can enter whatever you like. You can make Distance 100% in P and Mix 5% in B if you like. The "suggestion" is the make them the same value, or at least similar, but you are not forced to do that.

When we do establish the auto-linking in some capacity, hopefully in the next month or two, there will still be some way to adjust the value in Breeze in case you do not like our automatic suggestion. It's not a completely exact science as there are many variables in real physical 3D spaces that can effect this. Indeed in music, creativity and aesthetic goals, often take precedence (pun intended) over modeling real space exactly anyway. So it is fine to make some manual adjustments, sure.

Regarding drums, I would personally expect drums to use P distance of 50-60% or less. If there is a preset that is labeled as "drums" that has distance of 75% or higher, I probably did not make it. I think smaller distance values are more appropriate for drums, unless we are talking about orchestra drums such as timpani which are far in the back of a concert hall stage. Pop/rock/electronic/dance drums should likely have smaller distance values.

P.S.: where is the Phase Invert button in Breeze, please?

the circle/dot next to the Width label. if colored, it is on/inverted.

[Andrew Souter]

However I feel putting Precedence in front of it still improves that drastically on some sources - it's hard to describe for me, it's like it's making it "firm" somehow.

Well yes, simply putting P in front of Breeze, or B2 or Aether, certainly improves the reverb as well. It acts like additional "input diffusion" as Lex might call it, and it is modulated as happens in M7 and other extreme high-end hardware for example...

Even if you completely ignore the main functionality of positioning of Precedence, and always keep Angle at 0%, and you continue to use verbs on sends, you can gain a lot of benefit by adding Precedence before the reverb.

We ain't lyin' when we list this as a functionality of Precedence:

• Reverb & Early Reflections Enhancement

[jens]

Regarding drums, I would personally expect drums to use P distance of 50-60% or less. If there is a preset that is labeled as "drums" that has distance of 75% or higher, I probably did not make it. I think smaller distance values are more appropriate for drums, unless we are talking about orchestra drums such as timpani which are far in the back of a concert hall stage. Pop/rock/electronic/dance drums should likely have smaller distance values.

40-45 for me, as I mentioned - but I'd like to check out an example preset for Breeze which is that wet on drums for Pop/Rock/Country/etc. ...

I guess I'll have to wait for the automatic matching version(s) to check out if I can make sense of it.