2CAudio B2: Full Body. Maximum Attitude.

[Andrew Souter]

Couple basic questions since ti might be a few days til I can try it out:

-How is cpu usage? Fair to say if you're using both engines that it's around twice that of breeze? Someone mentioned that it was fairly economical but that would put it up around Aether if my math is right.

A single engine preset with Attitude and Dynamics off, that uses Hi Density/Diffusion mode, Hi Modulation mode, and default settings for all knobs/sliders, should be roughly eqivilant to the Breeze default preset in terms of CPU usage.

Copying this to the second engine and turning both on, is roughly 2x as much yes.

The density/diffusion modes (Nano, Lo, Hi, XTRM) each require roughly 2x the amount of CPU as compared to the previous in the list. Lo and Nano will be less than Breeze. XTRM can quite quite heavy, particularly if you have modulation also set to Hi, and/or invoke over-sampling.

-Do the extra effects (saturation, compression etc.) apply just to the reverb, or the dry signal as well?

They each have 4 different potential routings:

Attitude:

Input Pre-Dynamics
Input Post-Dynamics
Output Pre-Filter
Output Post Filter


Dynamics:

Input
Output
Side-chain (apply to output, use input as trigger)
Side-chain Pre-Delay (same but with pre-delay effecting the position of the dynamics envelope)

So it can get quite interesting.

Then there is cascade. You could turn of the Reverb engine both both A/B and use only Dynamics/EQ/Attitude and by using Cascade you can get two stages of these things which are mixed in complex ways... neither completely serial nor completely parallel.

Just trying to figure out if it's a multi-effect or a reverb type effect where extra effects get applied to the verb.

So are we. It's a Frankenstein... I'm still discovering new things it can do...

[snigelx]

The Nano stuff is just wild. I think I made it talk to me formant style at one point. Also, nice subtle textures with the bit crushing algo when BPassed and cascaded. The spatial positioning via cascade is kinda wild too. Some nice results have been had

[antithesist]

I'll be a first time 2C buyer too, when and if I buy, that is.

I know you probably can't say for certain, but is it safe to say B2 won't be cheaper than this intro offer for the next year, for example if there are holiday or other sales?

Also, what are 2C's resale and license transfer policies? Yes, I looked on the new website. Maybe it was there in Latin, which is Greek to me, or something like that.

I bought Aether here at KVR second hand. There was a $50 transfer fee, and it became NFR. I would imagine that is still the case, although I haven't checked.

That might be a deal-breaker for me. What's the official word on these issues, 2C? Also, please tell us about the copy protection. Thanks!

[Andrew Souter]

.. those filter types are head-scratchers.

They are not really filter-types, in the sense that each has a specific or individual character. I think they are simply the same filter with various EQ curves, such that bp would stand for band-pass, Br stands for band-reject (notch), then you have a few Hi C and Lo C for hi-cut and lo-cut and then the addition of Hi and Lo Z which I think is just a major and sudden attenuation of corresponding freq (if you look at the graph). The Z curves are a nice addition IMO,

Well, no not really, or maybe, depending on semantics... Digital filters are made with common structures, such as BiQuad, etc. These can be configured to act as Low Pass (hi Cut) or High Pass (Lo Cut), or band versions etc. Differences between them in terms of DSP math in some cases is just different filter coefficients in the math...

So we have some of these more common types, and we have some less common options... Some differences may be as described above, while others may be an entirely different filter structure.

As for acronyms:

Hi = High
Lo = Low
Bd = Band

C = Cut

S = Shelf

T = Time (only for damping. A shelf filter where the depth of the filter is scales based on the reverb settings in order to obtain a multiple of the decay time. So the graph should be read as a % of Time in these cases, whereas all other options, it is just the freq response of the filter.)

Z = Zero (this is a less common filter type. It is a specialized comb filter, that uses only "half of the comb". So it is like a notch place right at Nyquist or 1/2 the Sampling rate. This gives very steep attenuation right at the cutoff/center freq (i.e nyqist here), but even more interesting perhaps is that it gives a very gradual filter slope once you get an octave or two away from this point. It is very nice in feedback when used for damping. It will kill extreme highs almost instantly, while allowing high mids to decay very smoothly... It is also linear phase by nature. (it is the most simple linear phase filter possible in fact...)

P = Pole This is a very simple "all-pole" filter design. It is similar to the cut filters but has some differences in slope and phase response.


SF = Soft very gentle slope
I = -6dB per octave slope
II = -12dB per octave slope

x = Oversampled (well all filters are oversampled when oversampling is on). In the case of the Zero filters, we move the comb notch up from 22,050, or 24,000 to 44100 or 48,000. So the steep notch part of the comb becomes "out of bounds" and we are left only with the gentle/gradual slope. In Feedback this can be very nice for Damping! It requires that you are running at 2x or higher OS.

Now the other exciting thing of course is that the whole system is modular. It is easy for us to add more filter options in the future. It was designed to facilitate exactly this...

... short of being able to set the curves oneself BUT I would assume this affect the quality of the output if not done carefully and that is why there is a sort of pre-selection options.

...well no, not really... We have exactly this in Aether. In Aether we have a fully parametric 3-band system for Damping, and 2-Band for EQ, plus 2 additional high soft filters... This is a REALLY GREAT system. We will keep it, and maybe expand it whenever we do Aether 2.0 (again this is distant future, so it is silly to really talk about now) But this system is 15 controls. That's 30 controls for two engines... that is too much complexity for B2. Aether is a traditional reverb design in this area (albeit one of the most advanced in this area). Damping is set in bands as a percentage of Time. In B2, we have modular filter options. There are no rules. You can role your own. It simply depends which method you prefer... We think both are cool, but we think they are two products, not one. Two products that are a member of the same family/class of things. One does NOT replace the other.

[billcarroll]

I'll be a first time 2C buyer too, when and if I buy, that is.

I know you probably can't say for certain, but is it safe to say B2 won't be cheaper than this intro offer for the next year, for example if there are holiday or other sales?

Also, what are 2C's resale and license transfer policies? Yes, I looked on the new website. Maybe it was there in Latin, which is Greek to me, or something like that.

I bought Aether here at KVR second hand. There was a $50 transfer fee, and it became NFR. I would imagine that is still the case, although I haven't checked.

That might be a deal-breaker for me. What's the official word on these issues, 2C? Also, please tell us about the copy protection. Thanks!

I never understand the copy protection question. I'm sure people have some reason for asking, but as of yet I don't quite get it. However, for 2C Audio products you type in a license key in the plugin.

After spending some time with B2 last night, comparing to Aether and Breeze, I discovered a few things. I'll leave you with some broad strokes based on my testing.

• - B2 is pretty damn amazing
  - B2 Goes from very light to moderate CPU use depending on the patch
  - B2 does some very cool stuff you just can't do with any other plugin
  - Testing against Aether and Breeze (and a few other reverbs I own), Breeze came closer to B2 than anything else for clarity, and what I felt sounded like incredibly realistic reverb.
  - Testing B2 along with Breeze gave me some newfound appreciation for Breeze

B2 surprised me, and so did Breeze (even though I've owned it for a while). I need to spend more time with Aether to really even begin to harness some of the capability. I think Breeze tends to just sound good more quickly.

[Sampleconstruct]

My second attempt of demoing it tonight again resulted in Logic crashing when opening B2, the same happened in Studio One Producer. I deleted my aucache, rescanned all plug but to no avail. I was in contact with someone else using also OS X 10.8 and Logic 9.1.7 and he could open B2 fine. Dazzling....

Thread 0 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x97e87a6a __pthread_kill + 10
1 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a11acf pthread_kill + 101
2 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a48508 abort + 168
3 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a2adaf free + 428
4 audplg.dylib 0x2426da5b CParamList::setType(int, int) + 107
5 audplg.dylib 0x241db984 CB2ParamList::CB2ParamList() + 212
6 audplg.dylib 0x241d85d8 CB2AudioPlugin::cmCreateParamList() + 72

[KBSoundSmith]

B2 is a strange beast. One minute you're getting a beautiful reverb, the next, your getting bit-crushed fragments of sound getting sprayed across the stereo field with reckless abandon. It's a weird mixture of reverb + multifx, and it's going to take quite a bit of time with the demo before I can figure this thing out. But initial impressions are very favorable: it's quick and easy to use, it sounds really good, and it gets results I wouldn't have expected.

Here's a quick audio example I made up using an instance of Diva with B2 as an insert, first dry, then wet (the different coloring can be off, subtle, or extreme; I kind of went for extreme ):

http://soundcloud.com/kbsoundsmith/sets ... io-b2-demo

I'll make up more wild sounding ones later where it really mangles the audio and post those, thought I'd put up what is for me a rather subdued use first.

[Aloysius]

Don't 4get 2 save the Presets! Please.

[Itron]

Slight concern (and warning) that someone might be able to confirm using B2 in Studio One 2. I replaced Breeze with B2 on an audio track that I recorded. I thought it would be fun to compare the two directly!! I was using the Vocal setting called "Lead Chorus Vocal 3" in Breeze and noticed that B2 has the same preset. With Breeze this track had played perfectly. After I installed B2 I had time to select the same preset, but had to hit the volume control on my speakers very quickly, as I started getting a VERY loud feedback hum. I eventually discovered that it was due to the audio track "channel mode" being set to mono and Input L. Once I switched this to stereo, the problem dissappeared.

You can re-create this in Studio One 2, by creating a new empty mono track and adding B2 with the default preset, or "Lead Chorus Vocal 3" press the play and wait for a while (not too long) the feedback noise will build quickly and pressing the stop transport button doesn't stop the feedback!! Haven't managed to recreate this issue in Reaper or Cubase

Andrew, any chance of looking into B2 in StudioOne 2 at some point? (I appreciate you are busy at the moment, but it would be good to know that this will be checked.) This is on a WinXP SP3 PC. It does seem to be SO2 specific. Haven't had this problem with either Breeze or Aether, on the same system. Many thanks.

[Andrew Souter]

Slight concern (and warning) that someone might be able to confirm using B2 in Studio One 2. I replaced Breeze with B2 on an audio track that I recorded. I thought it would be fun to compare the two directly!! I was using the Vocal setting called "Lead Chorus Vocal 3" in Breeze and noticed that B2 has the same preset. With Breeze this track had played perfectly. After I installed B2 I had time to select the same preset, but had to hit the volume control on my speakers very quickly, as I started getting a VERY loud feedback hum. I eventually discovered that it was due to the audio track "channel mode" being set to mono and Input L. Once I switched this to stereo, the problem dissappeared.

You can re-create this in Studio One 2, by creating a new empty mono track and adding B2 with the default preset, or "Lead Chorus Vocal 3" press the play and wait for a while (not too long) the feedback noise will build quickly and pressing the stop transport button doesn't stop the feedback!! Haven't managed to recreate this issue in Reaper or Cubase

Andrew, any chance of looking into B2 in StudioOne 2 at some point? (I appreciate you are busy at the moment, but it would be good to know that this will be checked.) This is on a WinXP SP3 PC. It does seem to be SO2 specific. Haven't had this problem with either Breeze or Aether, on the same system. Many thanks.

Yes, of course we will look into any/all bugs reported...

I wonder if this is an issue with mono-stereo implementation in S1 or our handling of it etc? M->S stereo stuff gives us issues in other hosts such as PT, where we just actually disabled it completely to cure that issue. I am/was thus far unaware of any issues with M->S in VST hosts, but we will have a look.

No problem with S->S, right?

(really our algs are S-S by nature, and for best results shuold be used on stereo tracks anyway... but m->s was working afaik on all other VST hosts)

[antithesist]

I'll be a first time 2C buyer too, when and if I buy, that is.

I know you probably can't say for certain, but is it safe to say B2 won't be cheaper than this intro offer for the next year, for example if there are holiday or other sales?

Also, what are 2C's resale and license transfer policies? Yes, I looked on the new website. Maybe it was there in Latin, which is Greek to me, or something like that.

I bought Aether here at KVR second hand. There was a $50 transfer fee, and it became NFR. I would imagine that is still the case, although I haven't checked.

That might be a deal-breaker for me. What's the official word on these issues, 2C? Also, please tell us about the copy protection. Thanks!

I never understand the copy protection question. I'm sure people have some reason for asking, but as of yet I don't quite get it. However, for 2C Audio products you type in a license key in the plugin.

I never understand the non-understanding of the copy protection question. I'm sure people have some reason(s) for not understanding, but as of yet I don't quite get it. Debate about CP, on the other hand, I usually try to avoid.

Understand this in one word: BIAS. Basically, a $1500+ tool investment went dead-end for me overnight. Actually over two nights: first the cease of development/closing doors announcement (not that there had been much development going on for some time) and the subsequent authorization server shutdown a few weeks later.

Thank you for answering the question about the type of 2C CP.

If it were me, which it's obviously not, I think I would roll out a new website in between major product releases and after I'd delivered promised updates.

I'm liking B2, though. I'm just trying pay more attention to purchase issues that might come back and bite me in the tail (har).

[Andrew Souter]

My second attempt of demoing it tonight again resulted in Logic crashing when opening B2, the same happened in Studio One Producer. I deleted my aucache, rescanned all plug but to no avail. I was in contact with someone else using also OS X 10.8 and Logic 9.1.7 and he could open B2 fine. Dazzling....

Thread 0 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x97e87a6a __pthread_kill + 10
1 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a11acf pthread_kill + 101
2 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a48508 abort + 168
3 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a2adaf free + 428
4 audplg.dylib 0x2426da5b CParamList::setType(int, int) + 107
5 audplg.dylib 0x241db984 CB2ParamList::CB2ParamList() + 212
6 audplg.dylib 0x241d85d8 CB2AudioPlugin::cmCreateParamList() + 72

We have not tested Mountain Lion yet ourselves. Other users are reporting they have no problems with it though using this same host/config. It will take a little time to look into it, but we will.

We will thoroughly test Mountain Lion for the free 64bit update which we hope is ready asap...

Wish I had more info to tell you, but that's all i've got at the moment...

Maybe other users can comment here?

I suggest everyone on ML try the demo first to be sure everything is good on your system.

[Sampleconstruct]

My second attempt of demoing it tonight again resulted in Logic crashing when opening B2, the same happened in Studio One Producer. I deleted my aucache, rescanned all plug but to no avail. I was in contact with someone else using also OS X 10.8 and Logic 9.1.7 and he could open B2 fine. Dazzling....

Thread 0 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x97e87a6a __pthread_kill + 10
1 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a11acf pthread_kill + 101
2 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a48508 abort + 168
3 libsystem_c.dylib 0x95a2adaf free + 428
4 audplg.dylib 0x2426da5b CParamList::setType(int, int) + 107
5 audplg.dylib 0x241db984 CB2ParamList::CB2ParamList() + 212
6 audplg.dylib 0x241d85d8 CB2AudioPlugin::cmCreateParamList() + 72

We have not tested Mountain Lion yet ourselves. Other users are reporting they have no problems with it though using this same host/config. It will take a little time to look into it, but we will.

We will thoroughly test Mountain Lion for the free 64bit update which we hope is ready asap...

Wish I had more info to tell you, but that's all i've got at the moment...

Maybe other users can comment here?

I suggest everyone on ML try the demo first to be sure everything is good on your system.

Thank's Andrew, I can wait - the other thing is that Studio One doesn't recognize the vst version which I hoped to evaluate instead, it only registers/displays the au-plugin which also crashes Studio One.

[Andrew Souter]

I never understand the non-understanding of the copy protection question. I'm sure people have some reason(s) for not understanding, but as of yet I don't quite get it. Debate about CP, on the other hand, I usually try to avoid.

Understand this in one word: BIAS. Basically, a $1500+ tool investment went dead-end for me overnight. Actually over two nights: first the cease of development/closing doors announcement (not that there had been much development going on for some time) and the subsequent authorization server shutdown a few weeks later.

That's very understandable, and I feel you frustration. Tough situation to be in...

Thank you for answering the question about the type of 2C CP.

We don't use challenges-response, iLok, or anything else that needs to talk to our server, or use strong-arm CP tactics (that are usually broken anyway). We authorize via SN. You receive it via email. It is also saved in your order history. If you keep the installer and your SN, this is all you need. We feel it is better to try to treat people as friends and we will (hopefully) be treated in kind.

As for transfer policies, there is a 20% admin fee that entitles the new user to receive updates, support, and special offers such as cross-grades etc. The customer receives a "License Transfer Class" Serial Number that is his own personal number. This is entitled to full benefits as with normal retail licenses, with one exception: a license transfer class SN itself can not be transferred a second time. Some people don't like this (and i hope we don't have to debate it here for several pages), but we feel this is equitable and allows us to continue developing the tools and toys you guys come to depend on for your productions, as well all provide personal support to whoever needs it.

If it were me, which it's obviously not, I think I would roll out a new website in between major product releases and after I'd delivered promised updates.

Sure. I agree. Sometimes things can't happen exactly as we want. B2 is done. 64-bit is not. We are two people who have built 272 software builds over the past 544 days. That is one new build every two days, and is quite hardcore. We debated this very much, and I pushed for what you suggest initially, but ultimately this is what was decided.

Don't worry though, releasing it does not take resources away from working on 64-bit stuff. Denis and I develop algorithms, features, and tuning, together, but Denis handles all system stuff such as this. So I am free to interact with you guys and help you learn about B2, while he works on the 64-bit port. He is exceptional at what he does, and the wait will be worth it.

As a small company we need to manage these kind of projects (i.e. redoing things that were already working) with other tasks that we want to do also (such as improving GUI code, so he have nice pretty anti-aliased lines like other developers)... Otherwise we spend all of time in systems updates with no new products or new features for existing products...

And to be perfectly honest, I am very obsessive and usually push us to perfection and we suffer "feature creep" where we add more and more and the project scope expands and thus takes longer. I simply don't really subscribe to "the hacker way" MO espoused by Zuckenburg et al that says "done is better than perfect." I rather tend to believe, for better or for worse, "perfect = done"... So it's hard to let go of something when I am still aware there are things that can be done to make it better... This results in the quality of the products that you have come to expect from us. But it also makes deadlines and timelines a bit nebulous at times.

It's a balancing act, and we learn as we go along. We will likely involve some additional people going forward as to better handle the needs of our rapidly expanding user-base regarding systems tasks etc.

I'm liking B2, though. I'm just trying pay more attention to purchase issues that might come back and bite me in the tail (har).

Thanks. Makes complete sense. Everyone should evaluate their purchase decisions as individuals and do what is best for them depending on their own criteria.

We are very pleased that the feedback thus far in terms of quality/performance/features is overwhelmingly positive...

[snigelx]

Trying my hand and some custom B2 verb-age. Mine is on the snare and clap in the core loop. The first part of the verb is a very comb-filter-ish vocal nano effect which comes off as a pseudo-synth stab and the B engine is supplying the rebounding part afterward which slingshots the snare/clap around in wide highly diffused saturated space. Chord stab has a Factory preset on it. There's virtually no mixing. Just an example. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/84613738/2c%20reverbs%202.wav