TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Post Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:51 am

AAX Win/OSX released

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:44 am

I'm really getting into your plugins and have some questions now for gain rider also.

1) Would you consider adding attack and release

2) Please consider a lower latency mode

3) Please consider having a way to ride the vocal above the mix like vocal rider/autogain

I love the display and real time infos and your demo video is great for basic riding.. vocal rider does not do that well actually and melda sounds a bit unnatural (imo)..

HOWEVER, my favourite upwards compressor of all time is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkzJGhkjMg

Different thing i know, but there is some overlapped functionality in that a volume rider can increase the level of low signals also..

the unique thing about the curve is the way you never make noise louder unlike normal upward compression.

The thing is, he has no latency and only 1ms in look ahead mode.. which means i am sure you can add this functionality to the gain rider also, as it can already be set to only increase soft parts.. and the noise control would be the same as the range on the curve, right?

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:17 am

TheoM wrote:1) Would you consider adding attack and release
Well, GainRider is not a compressor, more a Leveler based on RMS. As RMS creates the detector value there is always an buildin attack and release. The RMS speed (aka window) can be controlled by parameter Sensitivity.
TheoM wrote:2) Please consider a lower latency mode
As I is said, GainRider is based on RMS, and RMS needs a certain time to calculate. As RMS is behind peak you need to delay gain change as well, so the whole processing chain is delayed. Lowest latency is 50ms (aka ca. 2k samples). There is a direct relation between RMS window size and internal delay, so we would need to change the whole design of GainRider to lower latency.
But you already said that other leveling tools may not work for you as expected, maybe this one of the reasons?
TheoM wrote: 3) Please consider having a way to ride the vocal above the mix like vocal rider/autogain
The need for riding comes from the unsteadiness of the vocal loudness (aka RMS). So GainRider keeps the loudness constant and therefore always above the mix.
TheoM wrote:Different thing i know, but there is some overlapped functionality in that a volume rider can increase the level of low signals also..

the unique thing about the curve is the way you never make noise louder unlike normal upward compression.
Compressors (even upward) are a different thing: compressors can be designed with 0 latency.
As I can see from the far The Curve has a "normal" compressor design with a 2 point gain transfer curve. But maybe I'm totally wrong here.
But this is what I would do to increase vocal loudness, by keeping the peaks under control and noise away:-)
You are right: I should consider this in a new version of Impress, but not for GainRider.
TheoM wrote:The thing is, he has no latency and only 1ms in look ahead mode.. which means i am sure you can add this functionality to the gain rider also, as it can already be set to only increase soft parts.. and the noise control would be the same as the range on the curve, right?
I understand that high latency values could create trouble in "not so modern" DAWs. But in case of GainRider there is not much to improve, sorry. It is just the design!

RangeMin/Max controls how much the gain can be changed. As I do not have The Curve on hand, I cannot compare...

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DrReacto
KVRist
141 posts since 21 Apr, 2016 from US

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:34 pm

Does this do auto riding like Waves Vocal Rider?
Dr. Reacto

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:07 pm

DrReacto wrote:Does this do auto riding like Waves Vocal Rider?
Dr. Reacto
Yes but it does it much much better.

What it doesn't do is have a way of listening to the entire mix and making sure the vocal sits at a user specified relation to the rest of the mix at all times. In fact I'd use this to even the audio volume wise, then use vocal rider or the ten buck hornet auto gain to keep the result at a specific relative level to the rest of the mix at all times.

BUT I won't use it as the latency is just too high. Pdc or not, plugins with this much latency just cause too many transport hiccups in pretty much any daw. I'll need to test it further on some wildly uneven vocal before I totally say no though.

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:27 pm

TheoM wrote: What it doesn't do is have a way of listening to the entire mix and making sure the vocal sits at a user specified relation to the rest of the mix at all times. In fact I'd use this to even the audio volume wise, then use vocal rider or the ten buck hornet auto gain to keep the result at a specific relative level to the rest of the mix at all times
Ahh, now i got the point:
You always want the vocal loudness in a fixed relationship (lets say +3dB) to the rest of the mix (loudness), correct?

I have to think about it...

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:57 am

Correct. All the other riders do do that my friend.

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:04 am

Well, then we will start GainRider II, adding the mentioned features and optimizing plugin latency!

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:23 am

Ok well i am buying it right now as it's just a great plugin for riding volume (sounds so much more natural than hornet/waves/melda) and will look forward to any updates! Just going to shareit now.

PS can i ask the exact amount of the latency? cause pro tools has a limit.

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:54 am

TheoM wrote:Ok well i am buying it right now as it's just a great plugin for riding volume (sounds so much more natural than hornet/waves/melda) and will look forward to any updates! Just going to shareit now.

PS can i ask the exact amount of the latency? cause pro tools has a limit.
Thanks.

You can measure the latency with AB_LM, sic :D
In any case: 8192, 10240, 16384, 26624, 47104, 90112, 133120 smp

But as i said, i took your remarks regarding latency for granted: i have already the prototype for a GainRider update (zero latency and other nice things). Pls stay tuned, btw we just released dEQ6!


PS: Order already processed, thank you!

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:26 am

TB-ProAudio wrote:
TheoM wrote:Ok well i am buying it right now as it's just a great plugin for riding volume (sounds so much more natural than hornet/waves/melda) and will look forward to any updates! Just going to shareit now.

PS can i ask the exact amount of the latency? cause pro tools has a limit.
Thanks.

You can measure the latency with AB_LM, sic :D
In any case: 8192, 10240, 16384, 26624, 47104, 90112, 133120 smp

But as i said, i took your remarks regarding latency for granted: i have already the prototype for a GainRider update (zero latency and other nice things). Pls stay tuned, btw we just released dEQ6!


PS: Order already processed, thank you!
That's good, cause there is no way it can be used in PT as it stands except for the smaller two choices. 16384 is maximum in pro tools so it should work ok too but then you can't put any other plugins with ANY latency in that same signal path. So the safest would be 10240.

i kind of regret it now, i really had no idea it would be that high. You are right i should have measured it first.

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:09 am

TheoM wrote:
TB-ProAudio wrote:
TheoM wrote:That's good, cause there is no way it can be used in PT as it stands except for the smaller two choices. 16384 is maximum in pro tools so it should work ok too but then you can't put any other plugins with ANY latency in that same signal path.
Well, maybe PT could improve this?

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:12 am

TB-ProAudio wrote:
TheoM wrote:
TB-ProAudio wrote:
TheoM wrote:That's good, cause there is no way it can be used in PT as it stands except for the smaller two choices. 16384 is maximum in pro tools so it should work ok too but then you can't put any other plugins with ANY latency in that same signal path.
Well, maybe PT could improve this?
that's never going to happen. Talk to avid. Their entire engine and revamped one they remade with PT11 is built around the 16384 maximum plugin latency.

Which is the correct latency choice on gain rider to use for vocals?

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TB-ProAudio
KVRian
537 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:17 am

TheoM wrote:that's never going to happen. Talk to avid. Their entire engine and revamped one they remade with PT11 is built around the 16384 maximum plugin latency.
Thats bad, most of the others DAWs are further ...
TheoM wrote:Which is the correct latency choice on gain rider to use for vocals?
Sensitivity 2 or 3 (aka 250/500ms window size, aka 10240/16384 smp latency)

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Re: TBProAudio releases GainRider, the gain riding plugin for Windows and Mac OS X

Post Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:27 am

TB-ProAudio wrote:
TheoM wrote:that's never going to happen. Talk to avid. Their entire engine and revamped one they remade with PT11 is built around the 16384 maximum plugin latency.
Thats bad, most of the others DAWs are further ...
TheoM wrote:Which is the correct latency choice on gain rider to use for vocals?
Sensitivity 2 or 3 (aka 250/500ms window size, aka 10240/16384 smp latency)

Hi, most DAW's ARE further but there's a few things to consider here.

pro tools users were begging avid for any form of PDC for more than ten years (after all, even Cubase SX3 and Sonar 1 had full PDC!).
Avid finally responded. They are basing the maximum on *hardware* limitations of their DSP system. If they put the maximum at the software only version higher, then when those projects are sent to studios with HD versions, everything would be out of time if large latency plugins were used ;)

Second, unlimited PDC also has it's downfalls. The DAW *has* to catch up in some way, the time has to be accounted for somewhere. So if you are having say a second of PDC, that means every single time you press play there will be a second delay (or move the playhead during the project playback), so the DAW can align itself, OR, there is a second of overshoot audio every time you press stop (how Studio one does it).
There's a point where working with a huge latency is just not enjoyable, even for mixing purposes.

I think in this case we have to examine that it's simply a case of your plugin having far too high latency. It really is. It *is* my fault for not measuring it first, and you HAVE responded that you are looking into it for updates, so all i can do is hope you will improve it, and use it then.
Cheers

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