TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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TB-ProAudio
KVRist
445 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:12 am

TBProAudio releases mvMeter, a multivariable meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement.
The GUI can be scaled up to 400%!

Image

Features:
  • behavior of classic analog VU and PPM meters
  • multiple measurement modes: PEAK, RMS, EBU R128, VU and PPM
  • multi channel metering: stereo, left, right, mid, side
  • large and accurate live meters
  • adjustable pre-gain, gain matching
  • 64-bit internal processing
  • 5 different meter themes
  • GUI resizing up 400%, ready for 4k displays

Image

System Requirements:
  • Windows XP or newer
  • Mac OS X 10.5 or newer
  • Win: 32/64 Bit VST, 32/64 Bit VST3, 32 Bit RTAS, 32/64 Bit AAX
  • OS X: 32/64 Bit VST, 32/64 Bit VST3, 32/64 Bit AU, 32 Bit RTAS, 32/64 Bit AAX
  • Tested with: Cockos Reaper, Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo/Wavelab 6/7/8, FL Studio 12.x, PT10/12
Price: free
Last edited by TB-ProAudio on Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Lesha
KVRian
1401 posts since 18 Feb, 2005 from Serbia

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:15 am

Thanks, looking really good.
It's easy if you know how

PTV
KVRAF
1988 posts since 5 Jan, 2006

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:29 am

Looks great, thanks!

User avatar
ere2learn
KVRAF
1558 posts since 3 May, 2014

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:52 am

Getting some graphical errors on the needle in Bitwig & Reaper,looks like its stuttering,also changing skins in Bitwig & Reaper stutters the audio playing

Win10/64x/Intel HD 4000

Compyfox
KVRAF
14255 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:15 am

Before I install it and compare it to Klanghelm's VUMT2 (which is the same concept, just more settings options, more skins yet "only" 200% as UI size):

What are the ballistics of PPM/BBC and PPM/EBU? 10ms rise/2,8s fall to -24dB?
And why is it that the reference is 7? Unless -18dBFS = 4 (BBC) and/or TEST (EBU). Then that's still a 18dB jump from 4 to 7 (3dB) - something can't be right.

What is the measurement window for the RMS meter? 300ms? 400ms (ITU-R MLk)? 600ms?
And why do you write "standard K-Meter modes, based on ITU 1770" - then it's basically a "K-weighted meter" (aka ITU-R BS.1770-0 or even 1), and not a default RMS realtime meter. Meaning, we have the same +3dB compensation/offset topic we had with dpMeter, no?


(summed up - why is this not written in the manual yet again?!)



And just out of curiosity - how long has this been in the making?
Last edited by Compyfox on Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar
Yeager
KVRian
1113 posts since 28 Jun, 2005

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:05 pm

ere2learn wrote:also changing skins in Bitwig & Reaper stutters the audio playing

Win10/64x/Intel HD 4000
Also big CPU spike while changing the skin in FLStudio (works perfectly after that :scared: 8) )
Win7/64x/32bit plugin

BTW it looks gorgeous :love:

cprompt
KVRian
736 posts since 17 Nov, 2010 from UK

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:49 pm

Great plugin, thank you. Yes it stutters when you change the skin but hey, once I've selected black I never need to change it! Very good, very easy to use and looks great.

Compyfox
KVRAF
14255 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:41 pm

Okay, I guess I'll answer the questions myself, and I won't be putting on any satin gloves...

Those that know me, know that I pay attention to detail if it comes to metering tools - and that I don't mince matters. For a blatant ripoff of Klanghelm's VUMTv2 (Deluxe, skins: white = Creme but with black border/Classic = Brown but with Flipped contrast, even the "needle design" is the same/black = Creme with flipped contrast // down to the orange info boxes in the manual that Klanghelm also used!), this is some banged up job, and not even accurate (see my old criticism on dpMeter v1 and the "AES-17 offset" dilemma). Not to mention bug ridden (then again, Wavelab 9 wasn't listed as "tested", but if you hang out that far of the window... just saying).



The main bug(s):
Resizing in Wavelab works, but once you "move" the UI to another place, the window shrinks to the "default size". This can be fixed if you hit the "make small" or "close UI" button in WL, but this shouldn't happen. I could even manage to "crash" the current loaded instance by switching to yet another screen size. For example: first I switched to 400%, then tried to drag the UI - container window went "okay, I use the default size". "Good", I though, "let's try switching to 150% then" ... poof goes the UI.

Can't confirm the high CPU load, though I can confirm slight glitches while UI resizes (no CPU spikes though)




The Manual:
Like my criticism with ALL TB Pro Audio Releases so far, it's absolutely sub-par. There is no mention of in-depth specs, the description of the features are vague.




PPM Mode:
Only one mode is selectable, and it's a "combo meter". It's actually the BBC scale on the top part, and the EBU scale on the bottom part. But the calibration is absolutely f*cked up.

First and foremost, it's "wrong calibrated". You DO NOT calibrate to 0dBFS (which does result in 8.5PPM in your meter btw), ever... in the (Analog) "voltage realm", that would be way beyond 1,228V. In the digital realm, you use -18dBFS (most common, EBU convention R68) or -20dBFS (STMPE recommendation) - period. And these are the values it should jump to with -18dbFS:
PPM/BBC = 4
PPM/EBU = Test

The values do however jump to:
PPM/BBC = 2,5
PPM/EBU = -6

Don't believe me?
mvMeter_vs_VUMT2DX_PPM.PNG
On further testing, rise/fall seemed strange as well. And in cross check with various VU's on my HDD, the meter responded slightly delayed as well.

But it doesn't end there...




VU meter:
Okay so according to the manual, it's supposed to be calibrated to -18dBFS. Now is that right?

Yes, with a static signal. Definite no with 300ms noise burst followed by 300ms silence test. This results in a jump between -20VU and -1VU, which gives me the impression "the ballistics are NOT 300ms, the meter must run slower".

Quick check: it's actually about 400-450ms (cross checked with VUMT2 Deluxe, VU-mode: Ideal)

So that is off as well...




The RMS meter is NOT a RMS meter
It uses a weighting filter (k-weighting), so it's an "ITU-R BS.1770-x type RMS realtime meter", not a "flat frequency response (aka Z-weight) RMS realtime meter". The "time frame" (ballistic) is about 350ms. The "refence" is the given -20/-14/-12. I assume this is the concept of Bob Katz using the ITU-R MLk specs with his "K-System v1 rules" (see Martin Zuther's K-Meter among others)...

But other than that, not a z-weighted (flat) RMS realtime meter (Dorrough specs, 600ms "window")




And finally, let's run the official EBU R-128 test sequence:
seq-3341-2011-8_seq-3342-6-24bit-v02.wav

While I do know for a fact that VUMT2 Deluxe can show 1:1 values (albeit only in L/R mode) to ToneBoosters EBU Loudness/Compact (both numeric and "needle"), mvMeter doesn't exceed +3 on the scale, but +8.2 on the numeric readout. Let's do a quick math shall we? -23 +8,2 = -14,8LUFS. The test file does indeed jump up to -14.8LUFS MLk max... but the TB ProAudio meter isn't even SUITABLE to show the +9dB headroom for "noise bursts" as written in the EBU R-128 and ITU-R BS.1770-x white papers.

So MLk, while being somewhat accurate, is completely unusable.

Let's check the same file with SLk...
Okay... in "stereo mode" (which is still only one global needle) it does give me a readout of +5 (again, not on the scale anymore), which in turn results in: -23LUFS +5LUFS = -18LUFS SLk. What do other meters show? -18LUFS SLk. Tolerance allowed for EBU R-128: +-0,1LU

So that is also somewhat accurate




:arrow: SUMMARY:
At this stage I CAN NOT recommend this meter.
Do yourself a favor and DO NOT DOWNLOAD this plugin

It's a nice try to surf on the success of the recently released VUMT2 / VUMT(2) Deluxe, but to me it's nothing more than an inaccurate, undocumented rip off. You're better off with the still freely available, though now discontinued SleepyTimeDSP "Stereo Meter" (backups can be found on Bedroom Producers Blog) if you're in need of a free x64 VU meter.




Honest question to the developer:
Do you even know(!) what xyz metering tool does, what it was made for, where it's boundaries lie and how it's being setup (heck, Wikipedia's article on the Peak Programme Meter gives you the exact values!)? I slowly get the impression that you don't. A lot of your tools are aimed at "accurate metering". But that's like the third time for me that I'm talking about your offset meters, and point out it's flaws, it's wrong advertisement and what have you. The AES-17 offset discussion alone resulted in pages of "I don't know what you're talking about".

This shows me all the wrong flags in one spot. And I do not only say this as somebody that has Metering Tools as a pet peeve, I say this as an audio engineer who thinks that proper working analysis tools are important.


So much potential, just thrown out of the window.


And you know what really annoys me with this? Or rather, downright pisses me of?!
People see only the following things:
1) it looks cool
2) it's free
3) the dev has a certain amount of plugins already, the feedback is general positive, so it must be good


Yet it's not even working accurately. Are you aware as to what this means?! You've giving out a tool, for free, for people to mass share who then insist "this is the best stuff that is available on this planet" (because: looks good, is freeware, not "pesky mere 22EUR via the competition").

But they're not using it right! Why?! Because "who" really knows these days how to properly check/setup a meter?! What the correct specs are, what it's supposed to show on the scale?!

This started the Loudness War in the first place, this results in still made up nonsense "metering standards", or the notion that "EBU R-128 type MLk meters are good for setting up individual channels of a project" (looking at the Reaper forum, or at Klangfreund's LUFS Meter "landing page"). Joe Normalguy can not(!) differentiate, and he won't dig any further into this either.

Do you have any idea how many PM's I get via KVR alone with the same questions about metering over and over and over again?! It's because of releases like this!

Honestly... why?!
This is far from being poster-child material for you.






[Fußnote: Ich kann das auch gerne noch mal in Deutsch verfassen, falls irgendwo eine Sprachbarierre existiert - aber ich denke ich habe meinen Punkt klar gemacht. Fakt ist, der Meter is "Off"/gibt falsche Werte aus, ist (erneut) nicht korrekt kalibriert. Ich würde das Release sofort zurück ziehen und das Konzept wenigstens nicht offensichtlich 1:1 "abkupfern"]
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chili beans
KVRist
255 posts since 4 Sep, 2014

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:43 pm

Compyfox wrote:Okay, I guess I'll answer the questions myself, and I won't be putting on any satin gloves...

Those that know me, know that I pay attention to detail if it comes to metering tools - and that I don't mince matters. For a blatant ripoff of Klanghelm's VUMTv2 (Deluxe, skins: white = Creme but with black border/Classic = Brown but with Flipped contrast, even the "needle design" is the same/black = Creme with flipped contrast // down to the orange info boxes in the manual that Klanghelm also used!), this is some banged up job, and not even accurate (see my old criticism on dpMeter v1 and the "AES-17 offset" dilemma). Not to mention bug ridden (then again, Wavelab 9 wasn't listed as "tested", but if you hang out that far of the window... just saying).



The main bug(s):
Resizing in Wavelab works, but once you "move" the UI to another place, the window shrinks to the "default size". This can be fixed if you hit the "make small" or "close UI" button in WL, but this shouldn't happen. I could even manage to "crash" the current loaded instance by switching to yet another screen size. For example: first I switched to 400%, then tried to drag the UI - container window went "okay, I use the default size". "Good", I though, "let's try switching to 150% then" ... poof goes the UI.

Can't confirm the high CPU load, though I can confirm slight glitches while UI resizes (no CPU spikes though)




The Manual:
Like my criticism with ALL TB Pro Audio Releases so far, it's absolutely sub-par. There is no mention of in-depth specs, the description of the features are vague.




PPM Mode:
Only one mode is selectable, and it's a "combo meter". It's actually the BBC scale on the top part, and the EBU scale on the bottom part. But the calibration is absolutely f*cked up.

First and foremost, it's "wrong calibrated". You DO NOT calibrate to 0dBFS (which does result in 8.5PPM in your meter btw), ever... in the (Analog) "voltage realm", that would be way beyond 1,228V. In the digital realm, you use -18dBFS (most common, EBU convention R68) or -20dBFS (STMPE recommendation) - period. And these are the values it should jump to with -18dbFS:
PPM/BBC = 4
PPM/EBU = Test

The values do however jump to:
PPM/BBC = 2,5
PPM/EBU = -6

Don't believe me?
mvMeter_vs_VUMT2DX_PPM.PNG
On further testing, rise/fall seemed strange as well. And in cross check with various VU's on my HDD, the meter responded slightly delayed as well.

But it doesn't end there...




VU meter:
Okay so according to the manual, it's supposed to be calibrated to -18dBFS. Now is that right?

Yes, with a static signal. Definite no with 300ms noise burst followed by 300ms silence test. This results in a jump between -20VU and -1VU, which gives me the impression "the ballistics are NOT 300ms, the meter must run slower".

Quick check: it's actually about 400-450ms (cross checked with VUMT2 Deluxe, VU-mode: Ideal)

So that is off as well...




The RMS meter is NOT a RMS meter
It uses a weighting filter (k-weighting), so it's an "ITU-R BS.1770-x type RMS realtime meter", not a "flat frequency response (aka Z-weight) RMS realtime meter". The "time frame" (ballistic) is about 350ms. The "refence" is the given -20/-14/-12. I assume this is the concept of Bob Katz using the ITU-R MLk specs with his "K-System v1 rules" (see Martin Zuther's K-Meter among others)...

But other than that, not a z-weighted (flat) RMS realtime meter (Dorrough specs, 600ms "window")




And finally, let's run the official EBU R-128 test sequence:
seq-3341-2011-8_seq-3342-6-24bit-v02.wav

While I do know for a fact that VUMT2 Deluxe can show 1:1 values (albeit only in L/R mode) to ToneBoosters EBU Loudness/Compact (both numeric and "needle"), mvMeter doesn't exceed +3 on the scale, but +8.2 on the numeric readout. Let's do a quick math shall we? -23 +8,2 = -14,8LUFS. The test file does indeed jump up to -14.8LUFS MLk max... but the TB ProAudio meter isn't even SUITABLE to show the +9dB headroom for "noise bursts" as written in the EBU R-128 and ITU-R BS.1770-x white papers.

So MLk, while being somewhat accurate, is completely unusable.

Let's check the same file with SLk...
Okay... in "stereo mode" (which is still only one global needle) it does give me a readout of +5 (again, not on the scale anymore), which in turn results in: -23LUFS +5LUFS = -18LUFS SLk. What do other meters show? -18LUFS SLk. Tolerance allowed for EBU R-128: +-0,1LU

So that is also somewhat accurate




:arrow: SUMMARY:
At this stage I CAN NOT recommend this meter.
Do yourself a favor and DO NOT DOWNLOAD this plugin

It's a nice try to surf on the success of the recently released VUMT2 / VUMT(2) Deluxe, but to me it's nothing more than an inaccurate, undocumented rip off. You're better off with the still freely available, though now discontinued SleepyTimeDSP "Stereo Meter" (backups can be found on Bedroom Producers Blog) if you're in need of a free x64 VU meter.




Honest question to the developer:
Do you even know(!) what xyz metering tool does, what it was made for, where it's boundaries lie and how it's being setup (heck, Wikipedia's article on the Peak Programme Meter gives you the exact values!)? I slowly get the impression that you don't. A lot of your tools are aimed at "accurate metering". But that's like the third time for me that I'm talking about your offset meters, and point out it's flaws, it's wrong advertisement and what have you. The AES-17 offset discussion alone resulted in pages of "I don't know what you're talking about".

This shows me all the wrong flags in one spot. And I do not only say this as somebody that has Metering Tools as a pet peeve, I say this as an audio engineer who thinks that proper working analysis tools are important.


So much potential, just thrown out of the window.


And you know what really annoys me with this? Or rather, downright pisses me of?!
People see only the following things:
1) it looks cool
2) it's free
3) the dev has a certain amount of plugins already, the feedback is general positive, so it must be good


Yet it's not even working accurately. Are you aware as to what this means?! You've giving out a tool, for free, for people to mass share who then insist "this is the best stuff that is available on this planet" (because: looks good, is freeware, not "pesky mere 22EUR via the competition").

But they're not using it right! Why?! Because "who" really knows these days how to properly check/setup a meter?! What the correct specs are, what it's supposed to show on the scale?!

This started the Loudness War in the first place, this results in still made up nonsense "metering standards", or the notion that "EBU R-128 type MLk meters are good for setting up individual channels of a project" (looking at the Reaper forum, or at Klangfreund's LUFS Meter "landing page"). Joe Normalguy can not(!) differentiate, and he won't dig any further into this either.

Do you have any idea how many PM's I get via KVR alone with the same questions about metering over and over and over again?! It's because of releases like this!

Honestly... why?!
This is far from being poster-child material for you.






[Fußnote: Ich kann das auch gerne noch mal in Deutsch verfassen, falls irgendwo eine Sprachbarierre existiert - aber ich denke ich habe meinen Punkt klar gemacht. Fakt ist, der Meter is "Off"/gibt falsche Werte aus, ist (erneut) nicht korrekt kalibriert. Ich würde das Release sofort zurück ziehen und das Konzept wenigstens nicht offensichtlich 1:1 "abkupfern"]
Lay off the meth buddy and get some sleep.

Compyfox
KVRAF
14255 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm

Is that in (blind) defense of the developer, or can you actually prove my findings to be wrong (incl in-depth analysis and shop talk... not many metering wizards out there anymore)?

If the latter, I'm looking forward to objectively discussing this.
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User avatar
TB-ProAudio
KVRist
445 posts since 16 May, 2014 from Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:48 pm

ere2learn wrote:Getting some graphical errors on the needle in Bitwig & Reaper,looks like its stuttering,also changing skins in Bitwig & Reaper stutters the audio playing

Win10/64x/Intel HD 4000
Yes, we noticed this on some audio environments. It depends on the HW (CPU, RAM), OS (Win, OSX) and DAW type. We found no rule, but empowering CPU and increasing RAM reduces this effect. The reason is, that during scale and theme change all graphics elements (bitmaps) are recalculated. Internally mvMeter works with 1888x1088 image resolution!

cprompt
KVRian
736 posts since 17 Nov, 2010 from UK

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:16 am

Compyfox wrote:People see only the following things:
1) it looks cool
2) it's free
3) the dev has a certain amount of plugins already, the feedback is general positive, so it must be good
Well, you got me there :D

But seriously (actually, I kinda was serious already) if the metering is off, that's is worrying. I used it last night at K14 and I seemed happy with the results. I'm not too anal about metering, like if the needle bounces around mostly below 0 I'm happy enough. Still, I guess it would be nice to know that this is accurate rather than in-the-ball-park.

Fußnote: was zum Teufel?

Compyfox
KVRAF
14255 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:35 am

I wouldn't call "several dB's off" and strange ballistics to be "in the ballpark".

If you want accuracy(!) with the exact same feature set (and so much more), but can live with the fact that mvMeter's 125% = VUMT2's 200% UI size, then get/support Klanghelm's VUMT2 Deluxe.
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cprompt
KVRian
736 posts since 17 Nov, 2010 from UK

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:52 am

Compyfox wrote:I wouldn't call "several dB's off" and strange ballistics to be "in the ballpark".

If you want accuracy(!) with the exact same feature set (and so much more), but can live with the fact that mvMeter's 125% = VUMT2's 200% UI size, then get/support Klanghelm's VUMT2 Deluxe.
I'm not defending TBProAudio here, if their metering is incorrect, it's incorrect.

I'd love Klanghelm's VUMT Deluxe, I have MJUC, SDRR and DC8C - €22 is a lot of money at the best of times for me, and for a metering plugin is more than I can justify at the moment.

Compyfox
KVRAF
14255 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: TBProAudio releases mvMeter - Multivariable Meter including RMS, EBUR128, VU and PPM measurement for

Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:01 am

Fair enough on the price/funds topic. You could start with "standard" (14EUR, unless you have v1 already then the upgrade is free) then work your way up.

But as of this moment, mvMeter is not only a sad "clone" IMO, it's also pretty much unusable. Except for digital peak and the EBU R-128 mode. Then again, there is dpMeter 2 which has a way better usability/range


So far, the dev ignores me. And that other user that called me a meth head (that somebody picked up now at GearSlutz as well - ah, people know me so well, right...) did neither apologize nor try to prove my findings to be inaccurate/wrong. I mean, why is the feedback by compressor "guru" bmanic accepted, or formerly TheoM about reverbs. But I apparently talk out of my rear end (it's not like I've written hundreds of pages about/for metering tools here on KVR alone). People sure are a strange bunch.

Either way - my post remains as pink elephant in the room
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