TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2178 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:57 am

Endor-8o8 wrote:I did it and didn't see anything about True Peak limiting mode. I'll take another look... I ain't stupid, no need for face-palm, thanks.
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Endor-8o8
KVRian
865 posts since 29 Apr, 2012 from Paris

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:13 am

Yes found it ! :) In the "Output" section. I'll give it a try...Limitless is still letting true peak overshoots pass through (in true peak mode), Dave is aware about that but no fix for the moment. I need a non Ilok true peak limiter.
Last edited by Endor-8o8 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep."

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2178 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:55 am

Endor-8o8 wrote:Yes found it ! :) In the "Output" section. I'll give it a try...Limitless is still letting true peak overshoots pass through (in true peak mode), Dave is aware about that but no fix for the moment. I need a pas non Ilok true peak limiter.
Maybe you try Barricade of Toneboosters... excellent!

Music was my first love...
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

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Endor-8o8
KVRian
865 posts since 29 Apr, 2012 from Paris

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Endor-8o8 wrote:Yes found it ! :) In the "Output" section. I'll give it a try...Limitless is still letting true peak overshoots pass through (in true peak mode), Dave is aware about that but no fix for the moment. I need a non Ilok true peak limiter.
Maybe you try Barricade of Toneboosters... excellent!
I have the Barricade V3 but I want a True Peak limiter that works in Pro Tools...
"It is better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep."

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1642 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:43 am

Barricade 4 does a pretty good job at True Peak limiting but it does let the odd few through, usually very short high percussive sounds. L6GE seems to do a better job if you use the limiter module in brickwall mode (not multiband) in the last place before the output limiter. Still though it lets a few ISPs through. It seems to me that the only way to really ensure true peak limiting in any case is to set the output threshold down by maybe 0.2dB or so.

Personally i try not to get too concerned by the odd one here and there. As someone else posted in another thread, plenty of classic albums have been released without true peak limiting and they sound fine.

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plexuss
KVRAF
2160 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:50 am

mutantdog wrote:Barricade 4 does a pretty good job at True Peak limiting but it does let the odd few through, usually very short high percussive sounds. L6GE seems to do a better job if you use the limiter module in brickwall mode (not multiband) in the last place before the output limiter. Still though it lets a few ISPs through. It seems to me that the only way to really ensure true peak limiting in any case is to set the output threshold down by maybe 0.2dB or so.

Personally i try not to get too concerned by the odd one here and there. As someone else posted in another thread, plenty of classic albums have been released without true peak limiting and they sound fine.
However, once the track is converted to lossy ISPs will usually wreak havoc on the audio. If you have ISPs in the uncompressed audio it's likely there will be many once compressed to lossy formats. I usually keep a ceiling of at leas -0.5dB if not -0.8dB and use a true true peak limiter like Nugen ISL2. Then I monitor ISPs in lossy formats to ensure that streams will be devoid of wide band intermodulation distortion caused by ISPs in those formats.

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Endor-8o8
KVRian
865 posts since 29 Apr, 2012 from Paris

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:55 am

mutantdog wrote:Personally i try not to get too concerned by the odd one here and there. As someone else posted in another thread, plenty of classic albums have been released without true peak limiting and they sound fine.
I agree with that, I should have specified that my concern is about the TV program domain. Here in France, the maximum True Peak value measured on a tv program should not exceed - 3dbTP, so I need a precise and effective TP limiter. Limiter6 seems to do a great job so far. I might pull the trigger on this one.
"It is better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep."

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1642 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:13 pm

plexuss wrote:However, once the track is converted to lossy ISPs will usually wreak havoc on the audio. If you have ISPs in the uncompressed audio it's likely there will be many once compressed to lossy formats. I usually keep a ceiling of at leas -0.5dB if not -0.8dB and use a true true peak limiter like Nugen ISL2. Then I monitor ISPs in lossy formats to ensure that streams will be devoid of wide band intermodulation distortion caused by ISPs in those formats.
Lossy formats will always sound shittier than lossless, ISPs aside, you've still got to contend with high frequency aliasing, especially if you're using MP3 (which really should be a dead format by now). IMO the only reason to be attempting to maximise volume now is for 16-bit lossless, there's no excuse for 24-bit not to have some decent headroom.

I do agree with all that you're saying, but it's easy to forget that if you're audience is listening to a low quality lossy stream, they ain't gonna be expecting a perfect audiophile experience.

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1642 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:36 pm

Endor-8o8 wrote:I agree with that, I should have specified that my concern is about the TV program domain. Here in France, the maximum True Peak value measured on a tv program should not exceed - 3dbTP, so I need a precise and effective TP limiter. Limiter6 seems to do a great job so far. I might pull the trigger on this one.
My knowledge of this is very limited, but as far as i'm aware the standards for TV is based around EBU-R -18 (?) with an integrated loudness at around 0 (-18LUFS). With your restrictions, that still gives a headroom of 15dB for peaks, surely it's not a problem to pull down the output limiter an extra dB just to be sure. Please, by all means correct me on this if i'm completely misunderstanding it.

I've only tried L6GE briefly but the loudest ISP spike I've detected using the limiter module last in brickwall mode with output set to -0.1dB (extreme mode) was a single incident (in a 50 minute album) of +0.1dB, at a particularly loud and dense part, so i'd say it does a pretty decent job really (I'm using Youlean for analysis, i don't know how reliable it is).

All that aside, it's a damn good limiter with a lot of features and creative potential. I'm pretty much sold on it.

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Endor-8o8
KVRian
865 posts since 29 Apr, 2012 from Paris

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:42 pm

mutantdog wrote:
Endor-8o8 wrote:I agree with that, I should have specified that my concern is about the TV program domain. Here in France, the maximum True Peak value measured on a tv program should not exceed - 3dbTP, so I need a precise and effective TP limiter. Limiter6 seems to do a great job so far. I might pull the trigger on this one.
My knowledge of this is very limited, but as far as i can make out the standards for TV is EBU-R -18 (?) with an integrated value of loudness at around 0 (-18LUFS). With your restrictions, that still gives a headroom of 15dB for peaks, surely it's not a problem to pull down the output limiter an extra dB just to be sure. Please, by all means correct me on this if i'm completely misunderstanding it.

I've only tried L6GE briefly but the loudest ISP spike I've detected using the limiter module last in brickwall mode with output set to -0.1dB (extreme mode) was a single incident (in a 50 minute album) of +0.1dB, at a particularly loud and dense part, so i'd say it does a pretty decent job really (I'm using Youlean for analysis, i don't know how reliable it is).

All that aside, it's a damn good limiter with a lot of features and creative potential. I'm pretty much sold on it.
Yeah you're right, it's giving a great headroom but I already had troubles with a couple of programs in which some very short transients problematic and didn't have the right tools to correct them or it was just impossible to tame without damaging the source. And sometimes I just need to mix very fast so I don't have the time to make automation or stuff like that.
So a trustful TP limiter is more than welcome. :)
The Limiter6 seems to be a beast. I understand the post saying it is a serious competitor to Limitless. So much option...and what a ridiculous price. :o
"It is better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep."

Eleventh
KVRist
315 posts since 1 Dec, 2012

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:31 pm

Hmm are you saying that Lim6 is letting IS peaks through, if you engage lookahead in the peak limiter? And if that fails (?) then then "true peak" option in the output section? sounds like a bug to me if that's actually what's happening.

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Vortifex
KVRian
851 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:00 pm

Also does it happen on all quality settings?

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mutantdog
KVRAF
1642 posts since 21 Sep, 2007 from The Infinite Void

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:27 pm

I haven't run a great deal of tests, but the aforementioned one was with "insane" quality. From what i've seen, there's more ISPs leak through on "eco" but i haven't properly investigated it. Also, i was only using 1x lookahead on the brickwall limiter, i haven't compared it with any longer settings. Using the limiter in non-brickwall multiband (for example) causes the output limiter to be a lot more active and it does appear to let through more ISPs. This is with the true peak mode active.

Once again, i am using Youlean Loudness Meter as my reference here (and the Beta of v1.5 at that) so i can't say how accurate it is. Perhaps some other users could try similar tests to confirm or not whether this is a thing. I'll have a bit more time in the week to experiment but that's really all i can say for now.

pheeleep
KVRAF
2790 posts since 11 Jun, 2003

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:54 pm

The last plugin I have on my master is Stillwell's Bitter plugin. It's free. It has an ISP meter: http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/bitter/

And congrats to TDR. Added to wish list without even demoing. Will get it some day.
Play it by ear

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FabienTDR
KVRian
976 posts since 24 Feb, 2012

Re: TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

Post Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:08 pm

Eleventh wrote:Hmm are you saying that Lim6 is letting IS peaks through, if you engage lookahead in the peak limiter? And if that fails (?) then then "true peak" option in the output section? sounds like a bug to me if that's actually what's happening.
That's not a bug, rare overloads are possible with the Peak Limiter due to the Gibbs effect appearing when internally downsampling a limiter signal (i.e. you can either limit the level or the bandwidth. Never both at once!). Not a bug, just physics. :) That's why the Output sections offers final, more reliable means of protection.

Most oversampling "maximizers" also combine several modules in series, but you typically can't see them. With limiter 6, you can build your own, but then these details start to matter of course!
Last edited by FabienTDR on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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