How to create a convincing horn section?

[Fender19]

I have a tune where I want a big horn section stab at the end of each chorus phrase. Seems simple, right? Wrong! I can't get it for some reason.

The "stab" is a major 7th chord. I used trombones from Sampletank for the root and 3rd and trumpets from Halion for the 5th and 7th. Seems like the right choice of instruments - real sampled horns playing in their natural ranges.

Individually each part sounds like a real horn - but when they are all playing together it sounds like a cheap Casio "horn section" preset - i.e., fake!

So, what is the trick to making a horn section sound like a REAL horn section? I tried slight tuning and timing offsets of the parts but then it sounds like a cheap horn section with chorus!

I'm stumped. Any advice appreciated.

BTW - one thing I did learn here is not to try and thicken by playing octaves of the same horn sound. Seems to alter the waveforms into a "synthesized" sound. So I'm not doing that...

[fluffy_little_something]

Good question. I love horn sections as well (early Kool and the Gang, EWF, Quincy Jones etc.)

Have you separated them in the panorama? I noticed that when I have them at the same spot, it becomes one mess.
I am not sure but I also got the impression that often the horns don't kick in at exactly the same moment, but very slightly delayed one after the other.
Maybe using equalizers to separate them in the frequency domain to a certain extent also helps.
I noticed that Quincy Jones' horns often lack bottom, they sound very flat and nasal, yet cut like a knife. I guess he also uses saxophones, which add a distinct color to the whole sound.

I still find this ancient tune very interesting in terms of horns, crazy to a certain degree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2bmnjeL3u0

[JCJR]

The typical way to get as close possible to strings or horn sections, either do a head arrangement or actually take the time to write out all the parts, then play each part in mono mode pretending to be that player in the ensemble. One track you are the bari sax player, next track the trombonist, etc. One hand playing the notes and the other hand (and feet, and maybe breath controller) adding expression.

But from your report, sounds like you are already multitracking in that fashion.

It does seem that even well made samples that sound exactly like a string or horn, playing a sustained individual note, tend to turn into accordion sounds played in ensemble.

The arrangement and playing counts for more than the timbre, as best I can tell. A pale timbral copy of a trumpet or violin can sound exactly like the real thing if played realistically enough. Ferinstance old mellotrons had terrible fidelity, imperfect copies of not very good recordings, and were beastly difficult keyboards to play, but sometimes good session players could completely fool you into thinking it is a string section on the record. Arrangers could get that sound easier than players sometimes, because they were accustomed to thinking in terms of how ensembles fit together.

Long ago had an emu proteus keyboard, had pretty good master controller features + proteus 1 and 2 rack samples. The string samples were pretty good for the time but not fabulous. It had a couple of rom demo songs, just midi data you could push a button and get to play. It was shaming that the fella who did the orchestral demo was so good at his art.

Play a string part live polyphonically and it was not terribly cheezy, but pretty cheezy even trying to think like an arranger. But the demo orchestral song, dang if it wasn't realistic enough that if you heard it on the radio you would have no reason not to suppose it was an orchestra performance. I had dubbed the demo off on a cassette and forgot about it. A year or two later happened to be listening to tapes in the van, late at night on the road, came across that piece and was wracking my brain trying to figure out what classical or new age cd it had been dubbed off of.

[robogone]

Bottom line is that those players are doing a lot more than just playing a note at a certain pitch, so if you do that with a sample you're not going to get the same thing. You have to be able to produce the same groove and articulations as real players. If you want to get good at it, learn a little about how the instruments are played, and listen to the exact timing and composition of those horn sections.

Remember too that they come from a rich combination of tones, so think carefully about what the horn sections consists of and how that works in pieces of music that you listen to.

[fluffy_little_something]

One problem when analyzing how they do it is that they tend to play so fast One would almost have to play it in slow motion...

[lfm]

Love horn sections too. Not quite there yet, but it's improving.

A really good help to me were using a midi plugin that splits a chord on different channels. Then it's real easy to experiment with coloring the chords, and which instrument goes where.

This means that base, middle and high key on a chord get different channels.

Really fun to do. I really like baryton sax as base, trombone as middle, and trumpets as highs.
And do base with single finger left hand, and play middle and high with right hand.
But find the way that works for you.

If not having midi plugins look at Insert Piz Here free bundle here on KVR(a forum with that name exist). These are VST Midi plugins.

If you use Cakewalk stuff as host, you might look into mfx stuff. There are this kind of plugins there too.

[JCJR]

Well the last ditch method is to hire at least one horn player.

Some of the legit college music students seem much more capable and studious than my lazy boomer generation was back in the day. Last time some years ago I recorded horn material, there was a real nice good sax player in his last year of school. Loads of control and technique, a bit lacking in experience and taste but just an excellent young player.

He would bring over a bari, tenor, alto and soprano sax. I'd write rough charts (not real picky complicated parts). Record at least three takes of each part, and several takes of him riffing over the whole song.

Then laboriously sift thru the tracks in digital performer, which was great for micro editing. Pick out the individual phrases out of the mass of source material which best enhanced the song. A good riff spoiled by timing, no problem, as it might get chopped up and inserted somewhere else in the song from where it was originally played.

With a choir of real saxes, played with good feel, it was possible to add synthetic trumpet and trombone and fool the ear pretty well. The ear hearing all those obviously real saxes, could be conned into thinking the sampled tbone and trumpet were real as well.

The same task could be done as good or better with a seasoned horn player, just that old guys are harder to hook up with, as they usually have houses, pets, wives and jobs.

[fluffy_little_something]

I also think that the sax is key to a good horn section. Without it it sounds like some Mexican stuff that makes your ears fall off or gives you Tinnitus for the rest of your life

[XorXisT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI3YLDST81Q

Sounds convincing to me. Not a horn section expert here.

[kbaccki]

Individually each part sounds like a real horn - but when they are all playing together it sounds like a cheap Casio "horn section" preset - i.e., fake!

It's easy to make even the best multi-sampled horns sound synthetic. For higher end products it's often pilot error.. too much unison, not enough timbre, variation, articulation, etc.... for lower end products you're bound by the limits of the samples. E.g., I have all of Chris Hein horns, and I think the product line overall is very good in the right hands... but check out the demos... some of the CHH demos sound like synthetic horn combos, while other demos sound convincing. Same for NI Session Horns, etc. etc.

Could you post one of these stabs that you created? And also maybe a couple of snippets of the individual horns? Be curious to know exactly what you don't like about what you have now both in total and in part.. perhaps there are some simple hacks with filter, vibrato, pitch bend, dynamics, etc. to make the individual parts more realistic.

Other than that, if you have very simple section requirements, I'd just find a good one-shot sample library. For pop stuff, check out "Phantom Horns". For more soulful stuff check out "Memphis Horns". They're older products, but they do what they do very well, which is to give you very realistic section one-shots. Many other similar horn section sample libs, but I have those two and they're good. A similar option with a bit more flexibility might be Ueberschall Horn Section.

http://www.zero-g.co.uk/store/phantom-h ... s-p357.php
http://www.ilio.com/products/ilio-sampl ... mphishorns
http://www.ueberschall.com/en/product/131/Horn-Section

Edit: ... here we go... just found these beauts via google search... http://www.newyorkbrass.com/download-fr ... mples.html

[odelay6815]

You should use any kind of modulation you have at hand to make each instrument behave as a real player would be playing it. Add slight "pitchbend-in" to the notes of trombones, for instance, and slight pitchbend rise-falls during long notes. Or vibratos (if you can't add vibrato through your modwheel, you'll have to fake a modwheel sinewave vibrato with the pitchbend. If you can control the volume to make the notes sound with crescendo or diminuendo, or make the the volume fluctuate, you'll be getting nearer the "real" thing.

[Etienne1973]

The "stab" is a major 7th chord. I used trombones from Sampletank for the root and 3rd and trumpets from Halion for the 5th and 7th. Seems like the right choice of instruments - real sampled horns playing in their natural ranges.

Did you try Drop 2 voicing?

From Top to Bottom:

Trumpets = 7th
Trumpets = 3rd
Trombones = Root
Trombones = 5th

[Aloysius]

Real Horns from a Sample pack.

If you think that's a silly suggestion, just wait until someone suggests you hire a Horn Section and or learn to play all the instruments yourself.

[Etienne1973]

Individually each part sounds like a real horn - but when they are all playing together it sounds like a cheap Casio "horn section" preset - i.e., fake!

Problem could be if you play 2 notes per instrument with 4 sampled trumpets (per note) then you double up and get 8 trumpets. Same happens with the sampled trombones.

[Music Bird]

I don’t generally use “real horn section” tones, but layering with FM or analog can make it sound better. For funk and soul, or anything else that needs good sounding horns (I do like Casio’s horn section sound though, even though it’s nowhere real, I use that all the time) though, I’d recommend a higher end library, like Session Horns or CHH, or something else dedicated to horns. It’s often good to use trumpets, trombones, and sax at different notes, or in octaves (but be careful, trombone and bari sax at the lowest, tenor sax an octave above that, and alto sax and trumpet the highest for a 5 man horn section with the wrong samples WILL sound like a synth). I’d also recommend if you have a friend who plays sax or trumpet, layer them with the samples. Sounds a lot better. Also, EWI is best for phrasing, as it has the same breath controlled. If you listen to a Kool & The Gang or old Motown/TOP record, you will hear slight differences in each horn’s volume and timbrality. If you want the best horn tracks, you can use saxophone as well, or it will sound synthetic. Almost all horn sections in all the good bands with horns have a sax player.