dealing with plugin latency pushing layered drums out of phase

[alligatorlizard]

Hi,

As the title says, I've noticed recently that if I'm layering e.g. a breakbeat with an extra kick, and have spent some time making sure the initial transients line up and are in phase, and then, for example, I add a plugin (EQ/bit-crusher etc.) to the kick drum channel, it will add a small amount of latency, sometimes enough to completely change the sound of the combined layers (e.g. becomes hollow, out-of-phase-sounding instead of nice and solid like it was initially)

While this is probably not news to most, I have to admit I'd never considered this problem before, probably hadn't noticed it as most plugins change the sound anyway, so it wasn't clear to me what was going on - in fact I may well have in the past rejected added certain effects to one layer or another because they seemed to degrade the overall sound, but what was actually going on was the phase of the combined layers was just being shifted out of alignment! (N.B. I'm talking about adding an effect to the channel of one of the layers before it reaches the drum bus - obviously at this stage the latency would affect all layers equally hence not alter phase alignment)

The reason I finally noticed a problem here was when routing a kick thru a channel with a bypassed plugin vs routing it thru a channel with no plugins loaded - both at the same fader setting. Suddenly the sound of the combined percussion changed radically - as the plugin on one of these otherwise identical channels was bypassed, it at first didn't make any sense why the sound was so different. Then I noticed that it was only when the sounds were playing together that I could notice any difference between routing the kick thru the channel with the bypassed plugin and the one without. Eventually my brain did kick into gear and realise this was likely phase interaction, however I was slow to realise this as I didn't realise that even bypassed plugins (i.e. yellow button in Cubase) give latency - apparently they do, unless actually "turned off" (i.e. blue button in cubase)

So, I can avoid that problem in the future by making sure to actually turn off plugins when not in use, as opposed to just hitting the yellow bypass button. However, if I'm wanting to add an effect to one or the other layer (e.g. putting the breakbeat thru a bitcrusher, but not the kick) then I'm now mindful that I've got to consider not just the difference the effect itself is making to the sound, but that it's probably pushed the breakbeat's kick out of alignment with the extra kick - and as I've discovered, a milisecond or two can completely ruin the combined sound, turning a nice solid thump into a hollow mush...

So, of course I can then delay the other layer a bit to match, but 1) this is going to get fiddly when auditioning multiple effects plugins, presumably all with slightly differing latency 2) I can no longer rely on the visual aid of the waveform to match up initial transient and it's polarity, as I have no idea how much exactly it's being delayed by plugin latency.

Hope I've explained this all clearly... I'm guessing anyone who's used to layering kicks etc. will know what I'm talking about, and why it's a problem.

Anyone got any tips on how best to deal with this, and with minimal interruption to workflow?

I'm making my beats in Geist 2 by the way if that makes any difference - and what I'm doing so far to compensate for a change-in-phase-alignment-due-to-plugin-latency-on-one-of-the-layers is adjusting the other layer either by off-setting the shift amount in the pattern graph, or using the sample pre-delay knob to add a ms or 2 to bring it back into alignment. Thing is, I never feel like I quite get it back to being perfect doing this, and all the fiddly workflow-breaking problems I mentioned earlier still remain.

Any tips much appreciated!

[liv]

Plugins with time processing will introduce latency.
Many if not all DAWs have plugin latency compensation.
Did you try that?

[alligatorlizard]

Many if not all DAWs have plugin latency compensation.
Did you try that?

Ah, hadn't thought of that! Will give it a go. Have used this feature before when recording live guitars.

But then presumably I'll need to keep it on for the entire project, unless I bounce down the drum mix - and will it also mix down with no plugin latency with this enabled?

EDIT: I was thinking of Cubase's "constrain delay compensation" button when I first replied to this! This actually removes the delay compensation (and basically by disabling latency-inducing plugins), hence why I've used it for recording live guitars, but it's obviously no help here!

Having checked in Cubase's manual, plugin delay compensation should be automatic "keeping all tracks perfectly in sync" - however it doesn't seem to be doing this entirely perfectly... maybe the plugins are not reporting their latency completely accurately? Anyway, just one plugin is enough to knock the two kicks out of phase (i.e. when applied to one of them and not the other) in such as way as to totally alter the sound from solid to hollow - so for whatever reason, some latency between tracks is definitely occurring due to plugins.

The only setting I can find relating to this is an option to set "Delay compensation threshold" in the Preferences/VST page - mine is currently set to 0ms - so I am presuming this means that any delay whatsoever should be compensated for (?)

Are there any other settings I should investigate to get rid of this latency?

[liv]

Don't know Cubase.
In Logic theres a setting for which channels you want compensation to occur. Maybe similar in Cubase?
Also, as you mention, afaik not all plugins report the delay so the problem may remain.

From what I understand you want to achieve (as you seem to do editing during the creation of the song) I think the best bet is to use a sample delay plugin on each channel/layer, so instead of moving the file(s) you drag a fader with sample accuracy +-. You won't get rid of your problem but it should be easier to edit and correct when the cancellation occur.

If you didn't try, theres usually a phase invert button on the mixer which is often used in similar situations. Although you seem to want a kind of dynamic scenario, it may be worth a try.

Again, safest and easiest bet may be a sample delay plugin.

[alligatorlizard]

Sample delay plugin sounds useful - Geist 2 does have ability to add pre-delay (in increments of 1ms) or to shift hits in grid forward or back in terms of a percentage ammount - but I guess a sample delay plugin would allow for more accuracy - will investigate.

However for now, I've solved my problem by loading identical chain of plugins on each channel - seems the surest way of getting exactly the same delay on each, hence getting the phase alignment I have previously chosen with aid of waveform visuals in Geist (or lining up wav files in sequencer) - as I'm usually not adding too many effects before the drum bus anyway (e.g. in current project just Decimort and Pro-Q) can always set wet/dry knob 100% dry, or Eq flat in not desired on one channel. Although, once decimort's on there, I usually end up using it to some extent... lovely plugin!

Also, having experimented a bit more, I have to admit it seems like when I initially noticed this, it was a particularly sensitive case (909 kick with live breakbeat loop) - for some reason, the combined sound of other kick samples and the same loop seem less radically affected when phase shifted slightly by plugin delay (again, why I probably haven't noticed this before).

However I am a bit disappointed to learn Cubase doesn't compensate quite as perfectly it claims, or maybe the fault is with the plugins not-entirely-accurate reporting of latency - will have to watch for this in future! Still, better to be aware of the issue than not.