How do you move beyond the 8-bar loop?
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
This is a problem I've been wrestling with for quite a long time. I've been hesitant to post about it because there are a lot of articles floating around the internet that attempt to address this in various ways. I'm not sure what made me decide to post, but .. here it is.
I often find myself getting stuck in a rut where I can only seem to produce a short loop of an idea. I have problems extending that idea beyond the initial loop. Once I manage to somehow find myself beyond the loop and have some sort of arrangement, I find it difficult to describe how I bridged the gap between the loop and that arrangement. When I move on to the next song, I get stuck at the same point. This results in most of my projects being short loops of ideas ... and full songs being very rare.
So, the question I put to you then is this: when starting a new song, how do you personally move beyond the initial loop idea to something that is more fleshed out?
Thanks in advance for the ideas and suggestions. I appreciate them all.
I often find myself getting stuck in a rut where I can only seem to produce a short loop of an idea. I have problems extending that idea beyond the initial loop. Once I manage to somehow find myself beyond the loop and have some sort of arrangement, I find it difficult to describe how I bridged the gap between the loop and that arrangement. When I move on to the next song, I get stuck at the same point. This results in most of my projects being short loops of ideas ... and full songs being very rare.
So, the question I put to you then is this: when starting a new song, how do you personally move beyond the initial loop idea to something that is more fleshed out?
Thanks in advance for the ideas and suggestions. I appreciate them all.
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el-bo (formerly ebow) el-bo (formerly ebow) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=208007
- KVRAF
- 16369 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away
Do you play an instrument?Naenyn wrote:This is a problem I've been wrestling with for quite a long time. I've been hesitant to post about it because there are a lot of articles floating around the internet that attempt to address this in various ways. I'm not sure what made me decide to post, but .. here it is.
I often find myself getting stuck in a rut where I can only seem to produce a short loop of an idea. I have problems extending that idea beyond the initial loop. Once I manage to somehow find myself beyond the loop and have some sort of arrangement, I find it difficult to describe how I bridged the gap between the loop and that arrangement. When I move on to the next song, I get stuck at the same point. This results in most of my projects being short loops of ideas ... and full songs being very rare.
So, the question I put to you then is this: when starting a new song, how do you personally move beyond the initial loop idea to something that is more fleshed out?
Thanks in advance for the ideas and suggestions. I appreciate them all.
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 13 Mar, 2004
Try to compose / produce horizontally, not vertically from the start.
Meaning, try to force yourself to get a basic song structure as soon as possible and care about details / sounds / layerings etc. later to not get stuck in the 4 / 8 bar 'looperitis'.
Meaning, try to force yourself to get a basic song structure as soon as possible and care about details / sounds / layerings etc. later to not get stuck in the 4 / 8 bar 'looperitis'.
Last edited by No_Use on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Piano lessons from age ~6 to ~14 or so. Guitar for 6 months in college. I'm 41 now. So, yes, but by no means would I consider myself all that skilled.el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:Do you play an instrument?
- KVRian
- 896 posts since 8 Aug, 2011
Good for other genre other than Electronics I highly recommend:
https://makingmusic.ableton.com/
https://makingmusic.ableton.com/
MXLinux21, 16 Gig RAM, Intel i7 Quad 3.9, Reaper 6.42, Behringer 204HD or Win7 Steinberg MR816x
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Would you recommend setting markers in your DAW first to specify which section of a song is what before filling in the blanks with melodic ideas? Or .. just record one track and play long melodic ideas, then come back and break them up into sections..? How do you normally work? I like the simplicity of your suggestion.. horizontally instead of vertically. Great!No_Use wrote:Try to compose / produce horizontally, not vertically from the start.
Meaning, try to force yourself to get a basic song structure as soon as possible and care about details / sounds / layerings etc. later to not get stuck in the 4 / 8 bar 'looperitis'.
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Ah! I forgot all about that book! I even read it when it first came out. I should go back and re-read. I barely remember it. Thank you for mentioning it!Boone777 wrote:Good for other genre other than Electronics I highly recommend:
https://makingmusic.ableton.com/
I must admit.. since then, my interest in music production has come and gone .. and come again. Need to refresh my memory and build some good habits.
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 13 Mar, 2004
Well, to be honest I didn't came up the 'horizontally instead of vertically' slogan, I read it somewhere on the net in an article dealing with exactly this topic (the 'stuck in a loop' thing) and I also quite liked it because I know this problem too.Naenyn wrote: I like the simplicity of your suggestion.. horizontally instead of vertically. Great!
I have a project template like this, with markers for sections Verse1, Chorus1 etc.Would you recommend setting markers in your DAW first to specify which section of a song is what before filling in the blanks with melodic ideas?
But the tracks I'm doing have relatively fixed structure (Pop , more or less), will of course not work with all styles of music.
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el-bo (formerly ebow) el-bo (formerly ebow) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=208007
- KVRAF
- 16369 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away
Skill is not so important for composition purposes. Knowing your way around a fretboard/keyboard, even slowly, will help to break through the issue you are having. And some grasp on music/composition theory, something I'm finally trying to learn, will give a lot of tools/options to write complete pieces.Naenyn wrote:Piano lessons from age ~6 to ~14 or so. Guitar for 6 months in college. I'm 41 now. So, yes, but by no means would I consider myself all that skilled.el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:Do you play an instrument?
My advice is to write the whole piece on either guitar or keyboard before you commit anything to 'tape' (recording jamming sessions, freeflow, without a click, can help to document happy accidents etc). The theory goes that if the piece sounds good with just one instrument then it will likely work as a full arrangement. Think of it like a painter who draws a rough pencil framework, and only then goes on to flesh things out with paint.
Stacking vertically is one of those things that gives the illusion of getting stuff done, but it's often procrastination to cover up the fact that the idea probably wasn't worth developing in the first place. Not all ideas are destined to end up as workable pieces, even if you've managed to make the most perfect 4-bar loop imagineable
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Well, I shall forever credit it to you, where ever you ended up getting it.No_Use wrote:Well, to be honest I didn't came up the 'horizontally instead of vertically' slogan, I read it somewhere on the net in an article dealing with exactly this topic (the 'stuck in a loop' thing) and I also quite liked it because I know this problem too.
Hm, originally I was working on EDM (mostly attempting Trance) and song structure kinda worked there. I'm looking to do more relaxed, chillout-type music now... not sure what that'll mean in terms of song structure. Something to think about. Thanks for the suggestions!No_Use wrote:I have a project template like this, with markers for sections Verse1, Chorus1 etc.
But the tracks I'm doing have relatively fixed structure (Pop , more or less), will of course not work with all styles of music.
I can get around well enough on my controller (although most of my song ideas tend to be C/Am for some reason). Hopefully I'm good to go, there.el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:Skill is not so important for composition purposes. Knowing your way around a fretboard/keyboard, even slowly, will help to break through the issue you are having. And some grasp on music/composition theory, something I'm finally trying to learn, will give a lot of tools/options to write complete pieces.
See, now this is something I've heard/read frequently while trying to come up with a way to deal with this problem. Unfortunately, I tend to get a lot of inspiration from the actual instruments I'm trying to use, so trying to start out with just a piano sound makes it more difficult unless I've got a song idea stuck in my head already. Although, maybe I could just pick one inspiring sound from a synth and use that like I would that piano? Hmm...el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:My advice is to write the whole piece on either guitar or keyboard before you commit anything to 'tape'.
Funny you should mention this. I often find myself doing all sorts of other things than actually song-writing when I sit down to work on a tune. It all seems like a form of procrastination .. even if they were music-related activities.el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:it's often procrastination
Music is hard.
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Erasure is a good example of an electronic group who writes on guitar or piano before ever going near a synth. Vince works on chord progressions while Andy vocalizes a wordless melody over the top, and that gets recorded for future reference. Vince has said that if he wrote on synths, he’d get distracted by the sounds and never get anything done. Hard to argue with his results. One way or another, it’s best to block out a roadmap for the whole song before getting bogged down in the details of sound design and orchestration.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 967 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Interesting. Any idea where they get their inspiration from for their tunes?deastman wrote:Erasure is a good example of an electronic group who writes on guitar or piano before ever going near a synth.
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el-bo (formerly ebow) el-bo (formerly ebow) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=208007
- KVRAF
- 16369 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away
I didn't say you had to use a piano sound There are definitely benefits to writing with a piano sound, as it allows for many types of expression from the same sound. You can hold down chords, while playing more staccato, percussive melodic or bassline work. This is not possible with a pad with long attack, for example. That being said, you can use keyboard splitting to combine sounds in a way that allows more options. I am currently in a composing/writing state, and am using a summing stack (Logic Pro) made up of four instances of Equator, allowing a huge amount of expression and options. Once I have all the music mapped out it will be time to record, and work out which of those four sounds will remain, and which will be swapped out.Naenyn wrote:Unfortunately, I tend to get a lot of inspiration from the actual instruments I'm trying to use, so trying to start out with just a piano sound makes it more difficult unless I've got a song idea stuck in my head already. Although, maybe I could just pick one inspiring sound from a synth and use that like I would that piano? Hmm...
Music is easy. Good music is hardNaenyn wrote:Music is hard.
- KVRAF
- 1792 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Kocmoc
Stretch the 8-bar to 16-bar, and fill that, stretch the 16-bar again and fill that...
Soft Knees - Live 12, Diva, Omnisphere, Slate Digital VSX, TDR, Kush Audio, U-He, PA, Valhalla, Fuse, Pulsar, NI, OekSound etc. on Win11Pro R7950X & RME AiO Pro
https://www.youtube.com/@softknees/videos Music & Demoscene
https://www.youtube.com/@softknees/videos Music & Demoscene
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- addled muppet weed
- 105791 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
go to 9 bars.
press record and improvise, then select bits you like, rearrange to taste and work on transitions.
press record and improvise, then select bits you like, rearrange to taste and work on transitions.