Need Help With Trance Project (CD Completed)

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14593 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 am

recursive one wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:48 am
I love intros in psytrance (spacey, beatless etc). Overall, I think a good psytrance track must be more than just a disposable product for DJs, it must be self-contained and tell a story and an intro often greatly helps in that.

Mainstream trance is different, it's build about a main theme (the drop) and everything else is used just to introduce this theme.
What is the divide between the two communities on this? For that matter, with all the different sub genres out there (currently in an Acid Trance set from 1994) how do the fans of each feel about each other's music?

Here's why I'm asking and here's where I'm going with this.

The biggest criticism of my track, even after it was completed, was that it wasn't Trance. Yet, the more I listen to all these different sub genres, the more I'm finding that my track isn't to far removed from certain genres or a mix of genres as you'd like to think. And yet, for whatever reason, what I did isn't Trance. Here. Yet, in another forum (won't mention the name) the biggest criticism was the melodies, that they were too simple. But nobody said to me "That's not Trance." They accepted the track as a Trance track. And I'm sure if I played it for 100 people there would be a percentage of people, even if a small percentage, that would say, "Yeah, it's Trance." They may not like it. But they'd accept it as Trance if for no other reason than whatever sub genre they listen to that it most closely resembles.

But I get it. For die hard to the core Trance "experts" there's a formula you have to adhere to and if you don't, it's not Trance. I still hear enough similarities between my track and the stuff I'm listening to that I would call it Trance. What sub genre? No clue. Because yeah, it doesn't really sound like anything I've listened to. But it's also not rock. It's not pop. It's not disco. It's not country. I could go on and on and on. Seriously, if it's not Trance, tell me what it is and I can guarantee that if I went to that sub genre of music and played 200 songs, you wouldn't find one that really sounds like what I did either. IOW, Trance is a good a description of what I did as anything else even remotely related.

Now if I could make up a genre for my track, it would be prog rock Trance. It's not progressive Trance because it doesn't really follow the progressive Trance format, but it's not prog rock either because there's no guitars, acoustic drums, different time signatures or any of the other things that make it prog other than the very many different parts to the song.

There's no question this track is all me through and through. And I guess if I was a somebody and Wiki was going to try to classify me, they're probably be scratching their collective heads trying to figure out where to put me.

There's something to be said for that, I guess.

But I digress.

What were we talking about again? I forget. :lol:

JoaquinAce
KVRist
115 posts since 8 Apr, 2018 from SC, USA

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:15 am

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:49 am
ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:38 am
wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:49 pm
I'm currently in the middle of a playlist with a lot of Trance tracks that don't start with the typical DJ kick intro. These are quite diverse. The only thing in common is they all start rather softly but not all with no melody.

Intros range from...

Soft pads
Sound FX
Percussion
Vocal samples

After the intros, the formulas pretty much follow the video I watched. But some of these intros are out there. So it appears there is room for experimentation as long as you keep it relatively subdued.
I'm not sure what the context here is, this thread is too long, but, there's a whole thing with certain genres of trance, notably psy-trance, where the intros are spacey and not DJ-friendly. I remember a long winded argument on nw-raves back in the day about whether or not good psy djs need to be able to beat match or not. I've been to more than one event where it didn't matter because all of the mixing happened during those spacey intros/outros.

Do whatever you want in terms of intro/outro. The only reason that you need to have DJ-friendly mixes is if you want your tracks played in a DJ set where the mix is continuous across the beats.
So not having a DJ friendly intro won't have people going "That's not Trance" and dismissing it?
A lot of trance radio edits have not DJ friendly intro's and outro's because that's wasted airwaves time. So no, having a DJ intro and outro only matter if you want to give DJ's an easier time to beatmatch. If its a radio edit or its not for DJ's or you don't care about making it easier for DJ's, then by all means, have any intro that you feel works. A dj intro and outro do not a trance track make. I'll go back to your question about which sub genre your track falls in. For me it falls within EBM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_body_music (I only put Wikipedia on here since you used Wikipedia as a definition source previously). All of this is IMO, others can differ.
Artist name: Joaquin Ace
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-654529282

recursive one
KVRAF
3847 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:28 am

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 am
But I get it. For die hard to the core Trance "experts" there's a formula you have to adhere to and if you don't, it's not Trance.
Well, for me the main characteristic of trance is that it must be hypnotic and immersive. These "formulas" merely help you to achieve this effect but it doesn't mean that you can't get there without sticking to any formula and neither does it mean that by carefully following the formula you will always end up with a "proper" trance track.

Basically the more you listen to trance the more you understand what is trance and what isn't.

Having thus said, most mainstream/commercial trance made in last 10 years sounds neither hypnotic nor immersive to me.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14593 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:30 am

Okay, so here are the first 250 tracks that I've listened to. Some are 25 years old or older. Some are new. Some are classics. Some are obscure. I feel like I've still only scratched the surface. But I think I have enough to go ahead and finish this project.

The ones marked with an "*" at the end are my favorites. Doesn't mean I didn't like the others. In fact, I'd say there were very few tracks on this list that I didn't like at all.

**********************************************
10,000 Miles – Juno Reactor
1998 – Binary Finary
3rd Eye – Morten Granau & Emok
550 Senta – Andrew Rayel
A Journey In The Outer Space – Transwave
A Reality – Craig Connelly
Acid Boom – Goa Gil
Adagio For Strings – D J Tiesto
Adhana – Vini Vici & Astrix
After All – Delerium
After The Storm – The Cynic Project *
Airwave – Rank 1
Akousmata – Polyploid
Alien Talk – Tabula Rasa
All Over Again – Bryan Kearney & Plumb *
All The Way – Ronski Speed
Angel Dust – Flatlex *
Angel Voices – Virtual Self
Angels Of Destruction – Phaxe
Another Way – Paul Van Dyk
Another World – Dj Shog *
Apache – Fisherman & Hawkins
As The Rush Comes – Motorcycle
Axonal – Transwave
Back In The Days – UDM
Because – Raja Ram
Bella Ciao – Gunz For Hire
Black Star – The Noble Six
Blood is Pumping – Voodoo & Serano
Bright Lights – Polyploid
Burning Stones – Astrix & Freedom Fighters
Cafe Del Mar – Energy 52
Can't Sleep – Above & Beyond
Carbon-Based Lifeform – FREq
Castles In The Sky – Roger Shah & Inga
Cherry Earth – The Cynic Project
Cherish The Day – Plummet *
Children – Robert Miles
Church Of Tangent – Polyploid
Clear Blue Water – OceanLab
Clubber Style – Eyal Barkan
Coaster Prefix – Polyploid
Concentration – Danny Eaton
Concrete Angel – Gareth Emery
Conga Fury – Juno Reactor
Corrupted – Aerospace
Cosmic Dust – RezQ Sound
Cry – System F
Crystal – Blue Planet Corporation
Dancing With A Ghost – Sunlounger & Eden Iris
Dark Side Of My Room – Spirallianz
Day Dream – Astrix & Delirious
Decadence – Sam Laxton
Deep Dream – Cytax
Deep Jungle Walk – Astrix
Destination – DT8 Project
Diving – 4 Strings
Down With The E – Tweekacore & Darren Styles
Dream Universe – DJ Garry
Dreamer – Zhi-Vago
Dreamland – Nu NRG
Dynamite – Gareth Emery *
Egyptian Night Club – Dark Synthwave
Eidos Form – Polyploid
Emerald Rush – Jon Hopkins
End Of Time – DJ Energy & DJ Tatana
Endless Palm – The Cynic Project
Eon Break – Virtual Self
Eternity – Datura
Euphoric Hope – Signum
Every Other Way – BT & JEWS
Everything Connected – Jon Hopkins
Exploration Of Space – Cosmic Gate
Faded – Alan Walker
Feel The Universe – Juno Reactor
Final Frontier – Juno Reactor
Flight 643 – DJ Tiesto
For An Angel – Paul Van Dyk
Forever – Dee Dee
G.AI.A – Shadow Chronicles
Galactic Fire – Human Blue
Galaxy Journey – Jikooha
Gamemaster – Lost Tribe
Gayatri – Astrix & Deedrah
Generate – Activa
Genetic Lottery – Astrix & Loud
Ghost Voices – Virtual Self
Gift Of The Gods – Cosmosis
Gone – Oliver Lieb
Great Spirit – Hilight Tribe
Greece 2000 – Three Drives
Grid – The Cynic Project
Happiness Happening – Lost Witness
Happy Theme – The Cynic Project *
Headliner – Jorn Van Deynhoven
Heaven Scent – John Digweed
Here And There – Astrix & Pixel
Heroin Shick – Eyal Barkan
High Energy Protons – Juno Reactor
Home – Above & Beyond
Hurricane – Ran-D *
I Am – Chakra
I Believe – Lange
I Like To Move It – Spiady
I Will Be Here – Tiesto & Sneaky Sound System
Icarus – Ralphie B
I'm Alone – Sun Decade
In My Veins – Dj Isaac
Incoming – Astrix
Insomnia – DJ Tiesto
Intense – Armin Van Buuren *
Interlude – Blazy
Into The Machine – Solar Quest
Into The Night – The Cynic Project
Invisible – Juno Reactor
It's Our Future – AweX
Jardin De Cecile – Juno Reactor
Join Me – Lightforce
Junosis – Astrix
Just In Front – Gaudium
Killer Mood – Evilcore
Komodo – Mauro Picotto
La Maquina – Andromeda
Legends Never Die – League Of Legends
Lepton Head 3 – Shakta
Let There Be Light – Astral Projection
Let's Turn On – Juno Reactor
Light A Rainbow – Tukan
Like This – Even11
Long Story Short – Phaxe & Morten Granau
Love Again – Andy Moor & Betsie Larkin
Love Heals You – Roger Shah & LeiLani
Love Stimulation – Paul Van Dyk *
LSD – Hallucinogen
Lunar Juice – Slinky Wizard
Madagascar – Art Of Trance *
Magnetic – Juno Reactor
Massacre – SVNTOZ
Masters Of The Universe – Juno Reactor
Megalovania – Skavenger
Meine – Daso
Midnight Sun – Driftmoon
Mind Bender – Andromeda
Moment Of Clarity – Perpetual Loop
Moonshine – Astrix & Avalon
Musa – Andrew Rayel
Music Rescues Me – Paul Van Dyk *
New Horizons – Jorn Van Deynhoven
Nightmare – Brainbug *
Northfacing – Corin Bayley
Not Enough Time – Cosmic Gate
Nothing – James Holden
Nova – VNV Nation
O (Overdrive) – Dj Scot Project
Obsession Forever – Unicorn *
Open Your Mind – U.S.U.R.A. *
Our Eyes – Nibana
Particle Arts – Virtual Self
People Can Fly – Astral Projection
People Will Go – JES
Philosophy – Solar Quest
Pilot – 12 Moons
Pistolero – Juno Reactor
Plastic Dreams – Jaydee
Promises – Andain
Psy – Goa Gil
Pure Thrust – Basic Dawn
Rage – Technoboy *
Reasons To Live – Roger Shah & Moya
Reboot – Sirion
Rotorblade – Juno Reactor
Sahara – Astrix
Saltwater – Chicane *
Same Thing But Different – Neelix
Sandstorm – Darude
Satellite – OceanLab
Scantraxx Roots – Headhunterz *
See The Light – Dumonde
See The Sun – Matt Darey
Serengeti – RAM And Ciaran McAuley
Seven Gates – Astrix & Vertical Mode
Shadows – Astrix & Simon Patterson
Shivers – Armin Van Buuren
Show Me The Way – Allure
Signs Of Life – Meteor Seven
Silence – Delerium
Sin City – Hatikwa
Six Zero Zero – Jorn Van Deynhoven
Skydive – Freefall
Sleepwalker – Gaudium
Soul Vision – Pixel
Spiritual Renewal – Talamasca
Spitfire – Infected Mushroom
Spotlight – Jorn Van Deynhoven
Springlove – Sven Vath and Anthony Rother
Star-crossed – Roger Shah & JES
Stardust – STA
Stimuli – The Infinity Project
Strange World – Push
Sunrise (Here I Am) – Ratty *
Supernatural – Slinky Wizard
Swamp Thing – Juno Reactor
Symbols – Zerox
Synaesthesia – The Thrillseekers *
Take You Higher – Code 15
Taking Place In You – Eternal Basement
Tasmanian – Special D
Tears Don't Lie – Marko Albrecht *
Techno Widows – Astrix
Teleport – Man With No Name
Tell Me Why – Paul Van Dyk
Terramoto – Terranoise
The Age Of Love – Jam And Spoon
The Calling – RAM & Darren Porter
The Collective – Phaxe & Morten Granau
The Hunt – Ran-D
The Launch – DJ Jean
The Legacy – Push
The Orange Theme – Cygnus X *
The Rebel – Yves Deruyter
The Second Room – X Dream
Til The Sky Falls Down – Dash Berlin
Tomorrow – Capital Monkey & Klopfgeister
Transparent Mind – Total Eclipse
Tripi Garoto – Niukid
Tripical Moon – Querox & Phaxe
Turn It Around – Alena
Turn The Tide – Sylver
Unit E2 – Liam Wilson
Unlimited Weapons – Polyploid
Upgrade – Day.Din & Klopfgeister
Varunastra – Apis
Vimana – Etnica *
Voyage – Yahel & Eyal Barkan
Waiting – Dash Berlin
We Are Alive – Paul Van Dyk
We Are Infinite – Navion
We Are Spirituals – Afgin
We Are The Fallen – Sub Zero Project & Phuture Noize
We Came In Peace – Dance 2 Trance
We Need Freedom – Antico
What Time Is Love – The KLF
When Is The Future – VNV Nation
When Love Comes – Flash Brothers
Wicked Millie – Orichalcum
Wizards Of The Sonic – Westbam *
Won't Hold Me Down – Brennan Heart
X Seduction – Seductive Spheres
Yellow – Phaxe & Morten Granau
Zoom – Ian Criss
**********************************************

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BMoore
Banned
1586 posts since 19 Aug, 2011

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 am

nvm
Cats are intended to teach us that not everything in nature has a function | http://soundcloud.com/bmoorebeats

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14593 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:24 am

BMoore wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 am
nvm
Oh come on man, you know you want to. You know it's killing you not to take an opportunity to rip me apart.

Wait, let me save you the trouble.

"You call that crap Trance?"

"You'd have to be reincarnated 100 times over to do anything even a millionth as good."

"Why does somebody with zero talent waste their time?"

"Why did you even bother ever trying to make music?"

Did I forget anything?

Please feel free to add your own insults as I honestly don't even care anymore.

andrelafosse
KVRist
246 posts since 18 Jun, 2010

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:40 am

Being able to authentically "speak" a style of music comes down to more than just knowing the vocabulary. Metaphorically: there are subtleties to the accents, the parts of speech, the construction of phrases.

Sometimes we can hear someone with technically "perfect" English skills, but there's something about the way they speak that native English speakers will pick up on and identify that something's "off."

Steve, this is, what, the first or second trance tune you've done? I haven't kept up with every iteration, but what I've heard sounds really good and quite accomplished. To expect that anybody is going to authentically master the vocabulary of a new form of music in one or two attempts is pretty unrealistic.

For my own part, it's frequently been sobering and humbling to try my hand at different styles of music - especially ones that don't have a particularly complex set of music theory ingredients - only to realize that there's a LOT more to getting the stuff to sound authentic than just being able to isolate and understand the component parts.

Finally: comparing verbal definitions of different styles is fine, but I tend to think that music is ultimately about how it sounds, more than how different people describe their subjective interpretation of how they think it sounds.

Two cents, grains of salt, random thoughts of no particular import, etc.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14593 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:51 am

andrelafosse wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:40 am
Being able to authentically "speak" a style of music comes down to more than just knowing the vocabulary. Metaphorically: there are subtleties to the accents, the parts of speech, the construction of phrases.

Sometimes we can hear someone with technically "perfect" English skills, but there's something about the way they speak that native English speakers will pick up on and identify that something's "off."

Steve, this is, what, the first or second trance tune you've done? I haven't kept up with every iteration, but what I've heard sounds really good and quite accomplished. To expect that anybody is going to authentically master the vocabulary of a new form of music in one or two attempts is pretty unrealistic.

For my own part, it's frequently been sobering and humbling to try my hand at different styles of music - especially ones that don't have a particularly complex set of music theory ingredients - only to realize that there's a LOT more to getting the stuff to sound authentic than just being able to isolate and understand the component parts.

Finally: comparing verbal definitions of different styles is fine, but I tend to think that music is ultimately about how it sounds, more than how different people describe their subjective interpretation of how they think it sounds.

Two cents, grains of salt, random thoughts of no particular import, etc.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. And sure, even though I had been already listening to rock for 13 years (1964 - 1977) before ever attempting to write anything myself, it took years for me to get to a point where I didn't sound like total crap, though if you ask BMoore, I still do. He just doesn't know how bad I was 41 years ago.

Am I going to become a Trance expert overnight? Of course not. But I think I can put together a decent tune. Right now, that's my goal. If I can do that much, I'll be happy.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
40621 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:54 am

klf wtil? trance?
well i never...

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vurt
addled muppet weed
40621 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:55 am

andrelafosse wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:40 am
Being able to authentically "speak" a style of music comes down to more than just knowing the vocabulary. Metaphorically: there are subtleties to the accents, the parts of speech, the construction of phrases.

Sometimes we can hear someone with technically "perfect" English skills, but there's something about the way they speak that native English speakers will pick up on and identify that something's "off."
that's a great way of looking at things 8)

AnX
KVRAF
3815 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:25 am

vurt wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:54 am
klf wtil? trance?
well i never...

nor did they... same with vnv nation, who ironically, i called out earlier as saying wags track sounded similar too...

ghettosynth
KVRAF
11421 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:17 pm

vurt wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:55 am
andrelafosse wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:40 am
Being able to authentically "speak" a style of music comes down to more than just knowing the vocabulary. Metaphorically: there are subtleties to the accents, the parts of speech, the construction of phrases.

Sometimes we can hear someone with technically "perfect" English skills, but there's something about the way they speak that native English speakers will pick up on and identify that something's "off."
that's a great way of looking at things 8)
Yeah, that's spot on. I'm not really a trance fan, per se, I have some trance records that I like, but I think that the above argument really holds for most of the underground dance genres. IMNSHO, the best way to learn what matters in these genres is to experience them in context over a period of time.

Psy-trance events are notably diverse in terms of age, just sayin. These days a lot of underground events are, but that's largely because we've all just gotten old. As far as I can recall though, psy-trance events have always had this element to some degree. There has always been the older than dirt hippy looking dude looking like he's trying to gather energy from the skies. You can even smell a bit funny and it's ok ;)

You can consumer "context accelerators" if you like, I'm not saying that it's necessary, in fact, I'm not saying anything at all other than I have observed that they seem to help (other) people "get it," so to speak. Yeah, that's all that I have to say about that.

However, I truly believe that dancing all night long, lost in a sweaty morass of feelings and expression absolutely helps you get it and you need that "in context." If you try this at the gym or at home it won't quite be the same.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ghettosynth
KVRAF
11421 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:23 pm

BTW: Can you link your trance tracks that you produced that you're talking about here, I'll give them a listen. I expect that will help other people joining your thread late.

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BMoore
Banned
1586 posts since 19 Aug, 2011

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:28 pm

Trance by (half-assed) numbers certainly isn’t the way to go.
Cats are intended to teach us that not everything in nature has a function | http://soundcloud.com/bmoorebeats

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vurt
addled muppet weed
40621 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:29 pm

ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:17 pm

Psy-trance events are notably diverse in terms of age, just sayin. These days a lot of underground events are, but that's largely because we've all just gotten old. As far as I can recall though, psy-trance have always had this element to some degree. There has always been the older than dirt hippy looking dude looking like he's trying to gather energy from the skies. You can even smell a bit funny and it's ok ;)
well psy sort of grew out of the festival scene, acid casualties dancing all night after watching hawkwind or the ozrics. lots of the hippy bands also had members doing psy or ambient trance stuff.

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