Can't wrap my head around channel/master gain levels

[ilhouse]

Been playing around with my DAW for close to 3 months and feel like I'm getting close to making some tracks that are "export audio" worthy. I used Span to get songs balanced on low/mid/highs and have been working on creating space on on songs, trying to eliminate mud, etc. I recently exported 2 songs and loaded them into Audacity and checked how much gain was needed on two projects before clipping. One needed 7db gain before clipping and the other needed 3db. I added max gain to tracks where no clipping was allowed by audacity but that seemed wrong so started reading up on gain and mastering.

I've been reading about -18db VU meters. Apparently many vst's work best on that level and it leaves headroom on master mix. But I've been having a hard time processing levels. So here goes my questions.

-Each plug-in/plug-in chain should be set at -18 on VU meter, then the level on the channel should be worked with accordingly? I noticed plug-in VU level is NOT the influenced by the gain on channel, but rather by plug-in chain. Is this correct?

-I added same meter to master, but noticed since the meter was telling me the output of the plug-in chain on master (compressor, eq, etc), not the output of the master channel (what it gets converted to when exported.) Should all plugins be aimed to be around -18VU, then the master wav exported at around -6 db then amplified to 1db minus max before clipping? This confuses the hell out of me since I've read everything should be around -18 but then mastered tracks are about -.3

Ahhh, I can't wrap my head around this, and haven't been able to even work on music because I feel like I should be getting everything right from the get go as far as db levels. I've literally spent the last few hours reading about meters, watching videos, and trying to incorporate it into my DAW projects and it's all a blur. lol

I'm using Bitwig if that helps any. Also, not planning on sending my audio out for mastering so pretty much trying to do a finished product ready for export.

[BertKoor]

Welcome to the world of The Loudness War.
Stay away from there as long as you can. Stick with -18dB RMS levels and loads of headroom. Commercial releases were like that until 1995.

"Mastering" is the art of raising levels by insane amounts while not revealing it clips. You really want to learn another trade? Let someone else do i t.

[ilmai]

I’m also quite new to mixing, but this is my current thinking. I’m also on Bitwig.

Within channels and groups, aim for -18dBFS. In practice, I’m using Klanghelm VUMT and aiming at 0V (since it’s by default calibrated to -18dBFS), since it’s easier to read than the tiny meters in Bitwig. This is both for those analog plugins that work best at “analog” levels, and for making sure channel faders have a sensible range.

After setting channel faders for a good mix balance, I move all the channel faders together if the master channel level is too high or low. Since I usually don’t have any analog modeling plugins on my master channel, it doesn’t really matter what the incoming master channel level is though. Then, as the final plugin on the master channel, I have a limiter (I’m using Limiter6 by TDR) with peak limit at -1dbFS (to account for more inter-sample peaks after converting to MP3) and gain set so that integrated loudness for the whole track is at -14LUFS. This is the recommended level that works the best for most streaming services I’ve heard from multiple sources.

Just my 2c based on what I’ve read and experienced myself. Would be happy to hear opinions from more experienced people as well.

[sleepcircle]

In answer to your questions:

As far as I know, if you add a -18 dbVU plugin to a track, yes, it's influenced by the plugin chain and NOT the gain slider, because the gain slider comes after all the plugins.

Same goes for the one on the master bus. For this reason, I never really use the master bus gain slider for anything except "fade in, fade out."


Okay now, I've never actually used bitwig, BUT it seems to me like it should be possible to set a -18 db calibration on the channel volume meters so that they respond to the gain and pan controls and you won't need the plugins on anything except maybe the master bus. I'll google a bit and see.

EDIT: the manual comes packaged with the program ALONE. debating whether or not i want to download and install the demo just to do this.

[ilhouse]

Welcome to the world of The Loudness War.
Stay away from there as long as you can. Stick with -18dB RMS levels and loads of headroom. Commercial releases were like that until 1995.

"Mastering" is the art of raising levels by insane amounts while not revealing it clips. You really want to learn another trade? Let someone else do i t.

So -18 all around, even with the mastered product? So this means if I load the master into Audacity, it would be able to be amplified 18db before clipping occurs? I just lowered the master level on a song, loaded it into audacity, and that waveform was a noodle! Audacity said it could increase the level by 15db before clipping occurred. Is that right? Or should everything be at -18, then at the very end be amplified? I guess a question that wouls help me better understand this is, "when I export the wav from DAW, and upload it into audacity, should I increase db until peak amplitude is -.3, or should peak amplitude be at -18 in there as well?"

In answer to your questions:

As far as I know, if you add a -18 dbVU plugin to a track, yes, it's influenced by the plugin chain and NOT the gain slider, because the gain slider comes after all the plugins.

Same goes for the one on the master bus. For this reason, I never really use the master bus gain slider for anything except "fade in, fade out."


Okay now, I've never actually used bitwig, BUT it seems to me like it should be possible to set a -18 db calibration on the channel volume meters so that they respond to the gain and pan controls and you won't need the plugins on anything except maybe the master bus. I'll google a bit and see.

EDIT: the manual comes packaged with the program ALONE. debating whether or not i want to download and install the demo just to do this.

Alright, that makes a bit more sense now. The channel slider on Bitwig is on the left, but I guess from a "left to right" view, it would be the last one on right, that gets sent to the master channel. Bitwig has 2 meter settings, Peak/RMS and K-20. I found a manual online yesterday. Googled Bitwig manual and it was the davelinnenbank link; 3 or 4 links down.

[sleepcircle]

Well it's not quite the same with mastering. When music is mastered to -18 or -14 or whatever, that's not its peak level, that's its AVERAGE level. Its peak level is usually closer to -1 or -2 db, and the sort of mean value (some sort of RMS value) hovers around the target of -18 or -14, etc.

[BertKoor]

No, aim for -18 dB RMS level. That is an average, peak level (what you actually see) will be at least 10dB louder. So there is some headroom until you reach the clipping level of 0dBfs (zero decibels full scale)

If you export in 24bit or 32bit then the level won't do much to sound quality. With 16bit however it does matter more.

[Burillo]

get a good EBU128 loudness meter (e.g. Youlean Loudness Meter, Waves WLM, TBProAutio dpMeter, Medla MLoudnessAnalyzer, or looooooads of others...) and aim for, say, -16LUFS integrated, set your brickwall limiter to -1dB and let peaks fall where they may. in my experience, it's pretty easy to stay within these parameters even if you don't know what you're doing. you don't need to fight this war, it's already over.

[ilhouse]

No, aim for -18 dB RMS level. That is an average, peak level (what you actually see) will be at least 10dB louder. So there is some headroom until you reach the clipping level of 0dBfs (zero decibels full scale)

If you export in 24bit or 32bit then the level won't do much to sound quality. With 16bit however it does matter more.

Alright so slowly starting to understand this. RMS is like the body of the song but the transients (claps, etc) will peak over that and that is the meter output on most DAWS, or at least mine. Im looking at purchasing a good meter and tried Youlean the other day and it looks pretty good. When I have a bit more time, Im going to try out Levels by Mastering the Mix, and decide between them, unless you guys have other suggestions. The videos I saw on Levels looks like it could potentially be a more useful VST as it meters and has couple other neat features.

Well it's not quite the same with mastering. When music is mastered to -18 or -14 or whatever, that's not its peak level, that's its AVERAGE level. Its peak level is usually closer to -1 or -2 db, and the sort of mean value (some sort of RMS value) hovers around the target of -18 or -14, etc.

Im planning on doing the mastering as well, aka export a ready to go WAV then convert it to mp3. I understand that many artist produce a song then send their WAV file out to be mastered so need to leave some headroom. But if I plan on exporting a "mastered" WAV from my DAW, should that also be -14 LUFS, and ignore the peak Amplitude; within reason?....within reason, as long as theres no clipping of course I've read a lot about masters being finalized with -.03/.04db peak. I guess it makes sense to focus more on the average LUFS being at a certain db level for an album to sound the same all around, instead of focusing peak amplitude, as each song will have a different dynamic range. If all songs are automatically boosted to have -.3db peak, I would assume not all the songs will sound equally loud, as their LUFS levels wouldn't necessarily be the same.

get a good EBU128 loudness meter (e.g. Youlean Loudness Meter, Waves WLM, TBProAutio dpMeter, Medla MLoudnessAnalyzer, or looooooads of others...) and aim for, say, -16LUFS integrated, set your brickwall limiter to -1dB and let peaks fall where they may. in my experience, it's pretty easy to stay within these parameters even if you don't know what you're doing. you don't need to fight this war, it's already over.

I'm starting to figure out where my confusion is. I think I'm focusing more on peak amplitude versus LUFS. Correct me if Im wrong. If making an album, the focus would be to have each song hit a certain LUFS level, lets just say -14 (Spotify standard I've read). If each song is -14LUFS, they would all sound equally loud, but since dynamic range is different in each song, the peaks will hit anywhere from 8-11 or so db louder than that, depending on range. So all songs would be -14LUFS and peaks would be at -2 to -6 or whatever the peaks fall at, as you've said; "let the peaks fall where they may"

[sleepcircle]

Yeah, that's more or less it, just so long as there's no clipping.

(some streaming services call for peak limiting at -2db, even, because of the awkward way some compression reconstruction can overshoot high frequencies. )

[BONES]

My advice is not to over-think it, just go with what sounds right. When you export your audio, export at 24 or 32 bits, that way you can use normalise to get your levels up to 0dB, before downsampling to 16 bit for CD quality audio and you won't lose any quality. It used to matter a lot more in the old days when tape had restricted headroom and you were always fighting against noise but in a modern DAW it is far less important.

What I do is to put a brickwall limiter on my master so I can set up a mix without having to worry about distortion. When the mix is up and running, I set my master level so that the needle on the meter that shows gain reduction only moves a small amount and only occasionally. If the needle moves on every kick drum, I keep turning it down. That way you are taming your transients without squashing your dynamics and you won't accidentally go over 0dB. When I am ready to export, I turn it down even further, so the needle stops moving altogether, then export in 24 bit and do all my mastering in Audition or SoundForge, where it feels like I can do a better job. When I'm happy with the master, I downsample to 16 bit and save it out as a finished song, ready to send off to our record label.

I don't worry at all about individual channel levels because a digital mixer has infinite headroom and you can't overdrive it. You can keep turning it up forever and it will just keep getting louder. I only worry about my master level and, even then, only towards the end of the process.

[ilhouse]

Well here I am, after all these months. Mastering is tough! I've got a couple songs I'm ready to release soon and working on the final LUFS output. As mentioned above, is -14LUFS the best aim, if mastering for streaming services? Just about all the streaming companies are -14LUFS, except for apple which seems to be be -16LUFS.

Main question now is, if the goal is -14LUFS, is it better to be in the -14 to -15 range, and get boosted a little, or in the -13 to -14 range, and get turned down a little?

-Being a bit louder has advantage of your audio remaining as is, and gets volume turned down a little. Disadvantage you lose a little bit of the thump, or power of the transient.

-Being a bit quieter and getting turned up has disadvantage of being slightly compressed to boost it up a bit, but has advantage of preserving the transient more and seeming a bit louder than a loud mix being turned down. Not to mentioned you get a little headroom for peaks, as streaming compression can affect peaks.

What are your guys' thoughts?

[BONES]

Really? I can master an album in half a day. I don't give a rat's arse about anything technical, I just make it sound good, which takes about 30-45 minutes per song. I doubt that the streaming services will compress it, they'll just normalise/amplify it up or down to their set limit, which won't change the sound you give them at all. It's not rocket science - if it sounds good it is good.

[Frantz]

Main question now is, if the goal is -14LUFS, is it better to be in the -14 to -15 range, and get boosted a little, or in the -13 to -14 range, and get turned down a little?

For my upcoming EP, I targeted -14 LUFS.

Note YouTube only turns you down if you are too loud, they do not boost you if you are too quiet. I am not sure about the other services.

[imrae]

The main priority is to avoid doing harm. So get the level where you can with the transients sounding right.